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TOPIC: Depressing reading

Walter the baker Depressing reading 4 years 9 months ago #1

Walter the baker
Each week I try to get some info about Freo players at Peel and I’m regularly disappointed with what I read. There seems to be a lack of development amongst our second tier players with few if any knocking down the door for a game in the 1st. To hear that Logue, Ballas and Crowden struggled against lesser opponents is a concern as is the non performance of most others in the squad. Making it worse still, one of the few consistent performers, Banfield, seems to be out of favour with the selection committee. I’m struggling to see how the current, recently re-stumped, re-developed, re-populated list is going to win a flag.

thewest.com.au/sport/afl/afl-watch-frema...-wafl-ng-b881260768z
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Corporal Agarn, Burton said You Beaut

cletus Depressing reading 4 years 9 months ago #2

cletus
Well...how Banfield can come in last year, and be one of the 'shining lights ' last year, yet be completely disregatded this year - given out 'less than scintillating gorm ' - is beyond me. ?

And how Crowden can play 9 games last year, and not be worthy of more than 1 game this year, is also dosturbing.

Fair enough if we were a winning form side.

But we aren't!

If we arent winning/ losing terribly, sutely these fellows are worth a go....and in a position that suits them.
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Corporal Agarn said You Beaut

hypen Depressing reading 4 years 9 months ago #3

hypen
As a result of so much trading we were left with an abundance of draft picks that were late takes: Giro, Bewley, Crowden, Colyer, Switowski, Schultz, Jones, Meeks, North......it's just what's left at that stage. They're not bad picks, it's just what you get. Every now and then you get a Luke Ryan but not often.

Valente, Sturt, Carter, Cox, Logue and Darcy are the quality down at Peel. Half a dozen players.

Now I'm depressed.
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goodie said You Beaut

Corporal Agarn Depressing reading 4 years 9 months ago #4

Corporal Agarn
Hard to actually say that Valente is quality. Been injured but hasn't shown anything when fit and Logue hasn't dominated a game at WAFL level since being drafted, so at this stage I'm going for four.
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Docker by the Sea Depressing reading 4 years 9 months ago #5

Docker by the Sea
The depressing thing about Peel is that their score lines reflect the same woes as our AFL team. This is one of the biggest contributing factors having me swing towards the anti Ross and defunct game plan side of the argument.
I still think that Ross’s style would stand up come finals time. The difficulty does seem to be, that it is fatiguing. I think this results in poor skills during games, possibly falling away in the second half of game and the second half of the season. I think this could also contribute to some players bodies being unable to stand up to the training loads required to get to the level required to play this style.
I think this is probably why we start seasons well but fall away, as we come in fitter and more match ready, but as the season progresses other teams get match fit and can match us.
I keep waiting for a player to kick a bag at Peel, it doesn’t happen. West Coast had Waterman kick six and Petrucelle kick five.
There has to be some correlation
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Burton said You Beaut

shane Depressing reading 4 years 9 months ago #6

shane
This is unrelated to Walter's depression but I thought it was very telling the way Nat Fyfe played after spending 10 minutes in the rooms getting his shoulder looked at. He dominated, he was faster and stronger than everyone and he kicked well too...then he slowly tired and went back to the middle and became boring. It harks back to the era of resting players for decent spells on the bench or in the pocket rather than the current trend of rotating everyone to get maximum minutes out of them.

I wonder if there's a bigger role of the concept of an impact player in the AFL. Someone who can come on, when everyone else is tired, and dominate for 10 minutes and turn a game. Someone like Harley Bennell, who's body might not be up to running a marathon and accumulating 20 handballs but has the ability to win most contests.
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cookie, Raglan Matt said You Beaut

Derby12 Depressing reading 4 years 9 months ago #7

Derby12
Shane - at the risk of agreeing with you …


i) Muscle fibres come in two types - commonly known as slow and fast twitch, with fast twitch having a further subset known as “super” fast twitch. Generally speaking, fast twitch fibres provide speed and power, and slow twitch provide endurance. Slow twitch fibres require aerobic energy, whereas fast twice fibres can operate relatively anaerobically for shorter periods (ie. you can be a very fast sprinter with a relatively low aerobic capacity but you cannot be an endurance runner with a low aerobic capacity). You cannot change the proportion of fast/slow twitch you are born with (not through normal training anyway). People with higher proportion fast twitch fibres tend to bulk up more, and more quickly. But the increase in strength and power comes at a cost, because they have more capacity to injure themselves - particularly when under fatigue (remembering that fast twitch fibres fatigue more quickly). There is also a theoretical max muscle load ratio to body size and skeletal frame. You can make your fast twitch operate more efficiently, which increases endurance, but this is a very limited improvement, and you CANNOT change or increase the proportion of slow twitch by training.

ii) in the late 1990’s sports scientists ran a series of muscle fibre tests across one of the European Soccer leagues (Netherlands or Belgium from memory). They tested a sample of the elite players in the top league. the results were surprising in that they found a lower incidence of high proportion fast twitch fibres across this group than in the general population. In a sport where speed and power are critical factors, this seemed anomalous. Subsequent testing in lower leagues and in junior development squads showed a normal or higher rate of high proportion fast twitch in players. So there was some investigation done, and what they found, after interviewing coaches and monitoring sample cohorts, was that the vast majority of players with high proportion fast twitch simply could not cope with the training loads expected of the elite level soccer players, and very quickly broke down. Coaches commented that they were “always injured”, and “unreliable” and they ended up being cut, and returning to lower levels, where they often flourished. This was - subjectively - attributed to the fact that the game at that time required high level running over extended periods, wth repeat games (2-4 per week in some cases). Quite simply, the game and training regimes had screened out the majority of burst players by creating an environment that they simply could not - by virtue of their genetic disposition - operate in successfully. This should be ringing a few bells for you out there I reckon …

iii) elite endurance is strongly linked to the combination of muscle type and body type. It is no accident that the Kenyans and Ethiopians are amazing endurance athletes. The lighter the build, and also the shorter the limb in proportion to the body and smaller the extremities, the less energy required to drive the body over distance. People with long limbs, and larger muscles, particularly in the calves, and heavier boned legs and ankles, suffer a distinct disadvantage in distance endurance events. From memory, 100gm on your lower leg is equivalent of carrying a more than a kilo on your torso in terms of relative energy used.

iv) putting all this together, along with the modern trend for full field pressure, and big-bodied midfielders, you put an enormous strain on the body. We ask our bigger athletes to run endurance events every game (think Nat Fyfe). We ask our fast athletes to run endurance events every game (think Stephen Hill, Haydn Ballantyne). None are physically suited to this. I think this is a massive contributor to the injuries that we are seeing. Look at Brad Hill, who would (conjecture) probably have 70-30 slow twitch muscles and a small frame. He is ideally suited to endurance style work, and - not surprisingly - he runs out games, and is relatively robust. Look at the difference in build between him and Stephen - now, and when they first came into the game. As a skinny kid, Stephen was lightning fast. Off the half back flank - with a slightly different style of game - he dominated and was marked for a tag in his first season. Then at some point, someone decided we needed an inside midfielder, and he went away and bulked up. And yes, he did bulk up, quickly. Characteristic of high proportion fast twitch fibres. But from that point on - switching into a more continuous running role, carrying a shedload of extra weight, and with a higher muscle mass which was spending a greater proportion of each game in a fatigued state, he started breaking down. IMO Haydn Ballantyne is an identical case in point.

So - My take on this - Clubs and the AFL have to find a way to balance the game style we see today, with the need to train and use players selectively according to their skills and physical strengths, instead of a one size fits all model. Whether this is through the individual bravery of a club recognising the impact of burst players and accommodating them into the structure (as, I hate to say it, Wet Toast do) , or whether there needs to be systemic change - via interchange or zoning - to reduce the requirement for endurance above skill and speed I am not sure. But there is more at play here than just Lyon’s game plan and the Docker’s fitness staff. There’s a failing in both the system and the clubs at the moment, and it’s hurting the game and taking some amazing players out of the game.
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blockerhall, purple_tez, The_Yeti, ICONDOCKER, heycharger, goodie, freoboy49, Mercury, Bizkit, Dockerplus said You Beaut and this user have 10 others thankyou

Docker by the Sea Depressing reading 4 years 9 months ago #8

Docker by the Sea
Very interesting read Derby.
I have been having a very similar conversation with west coast supporters around the use of Nic Nat. Everyone bangs on about how effective Nic Nat is given he was only getting 50ish% of game time. I contend that if you gave most ruckman this same proposition, they would dominate against the bloke that had played approximately 90% of game
The problem I see with this scenario is it is high risk. I would argue that altough West Coast may gain a benefit from this, there is also risk. I think they are a better team without him in the team and wouldn’t have won the premiership last year without him getting injured.
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pollyanna Depressing reading 4 years 9 months ago #9

pollyanna
Yes, the science is a great read - thanks for that. Then I think of Plugger and everything goes Donald Trump on me.
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Lazza040, Derby12 said You Beaut

Derby12 Depressing reading 4 years 9 months ago #10

Derby12
Human beings are infinitely variable beasts, Trump and Plugger being outliers in many respects. Trump more so I reckon.

I wonder where Plugger would fit in to the game today?
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Derby12 Depressing reading 4 years 9 months ago #11

Derby12
DBTS - Nic NoStat is definitely a burst player, but without Lycett WC need him playing. There's a post somewhere here saying he won't play 50 more games. Under the current circumstances I think that will be true, unless he is managed very carefully.

Same could have been said for Sandy, who whilst not a burst player, is not built for endurance running and I would argue has not been managed very well in the past.
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Docker by the Sea said You Beaut

shane Depressing reading 4 years 9 months ago #12

shane
I think the question has been, do you get more value out of having endurance players who can play all day or have someone who is brilliant but will be outdone by the fitter, less skilful player in the last quarter. Coaches being conservative people who crave control, have continually opted for the safe option of not being over run.

But like all things sport, when everyone goes in one direction, the opportunity opens back up for someone to go the other way. Big endurance blokes have created a game style that is more defensive and lower scoring than it once was.

I think it will just take an innovative coach to take a chance on changing their tactics, or more likely one forced into change that gets lucky, and it will go back the other way and we'll see it take off.

And then they'll go too far and over correct back again.
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rogerrocks, pollyanna said You Beaut

Docker by the Sea Depressing reading 4 years 9 months ago #13

Docker by the Sea
Unfortunately we seem to have had our share of these players. I am concerned that Hogan is another.
I wonder if a way to manage this, is lighten pre-season loads and gain fitness over the season. I am beginning to seriously get onboard with the belief that our game style is to arduous.
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Eventually Depressing reading 4 years 9 months ago #14

Eventually
Lyon coaches a game style that will hold up in finals but the big problem is that he needs a mature team to play that game style which we no longer have. Lyons game style is never going to work while we are rebuilding as it fatigues our younger players both mentally and physically and dont be surprised if they then look to switch to a club where they can play their natural game instead.
We need a young coach with an attacking game style like at the Lions, Carlton, Bulldogs and with our playing list from round one next year you would see a completely different team output.
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