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TOPIC: If it looks like a duck

Raglan Matt If it looks like a duck 5 years 4 weeks ago #15

Raglan Matt
Shane, while agree with most of your last comment, I think there is a huge difference between resting players so you can win a final, and losing the last 4 or 5 games of a season so you can get priority draft picks.
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shane If it looks like a duck 5 years 4 weeks ago #16

shane
That's not from he actual report though. That's the journalist interpreting the report.

Don't ignore that Chris Connolly and Dean Bailey were both suspended and the club was fined a huge whack of money for them discussing the idea of getting the priority pick Not acting on it or planning for it. Just discussing it. That was pretty much all the AFL could do.

There was no evidence that any player didn't try their hardest in a match. There was no evidence that the coach did anything on match day that was suspicious. All they did was do what every other team does when they're at the bottom of the ladder, but they spoke more openly about it.

If not picking your best team and not playing blokes in their best position is cheating then every coach who's ever been out of finals contention is a cheat.
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goodie said You Beaut

shane If it looks like a duck 5 years 4 weeks ago #17

shane
What if you're resting players to get a home final or an easier first round opponent.
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rogerrocks If it looks like a duck 5 years 4 weeks ago #18

rogerrocks
Teams are trying to win a premiership, not every game they play. I have no problem if a team chooses to leave players out because it is in their longer term best interests. I think it is the AFL's job to make sure they don't provide perverse incentives. Not sure how they do that though.
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Morgan, Walter the baker said You Beaut

hypen If it looks like a duck 5 years 4 weeks ago #19

hypen
what with the intent of winning that final and the next one and the GF and getting the last first round pick in the draft?
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shane If it looks like a duck 5 years 4 weeks ago #20

shane
Say Richmond are in top spot, Fremantle are 2nd and Hawthorn are 3rd. The Hawks put in a weak team because they would rather finish 4th and start the finals at home than travel to WA.

Melbourne are last. They put in a week team because they would rather get a better pick.

Hawthorn say they're resting players for the finals. Melbourne say they want the kids to get some experience.

What do you want the AFL to do?
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rogerrocks If it looks like a duck 5 years 4 weeks ago #21

rogerrocks
The AFL should have a system that doesn't reward losing. But if they can't do that, they should just cop it and move on.
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hypen If it looks like a duck 5 years 4 weeks ago #22

hypen
more around what you actually thought of Melbourne's actions. but perhaps you weren't passing judgment on that rather just highlighting the AFL's ability to act on what they had.
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Morgan If it looks like a duck 5 years 4 weeks ago #23

Morgan
To run with the incentive point, imagine this scenario: There is an outstanding midfield prospect from WA who everyone projects to go in the top 3 or 4 in the 2019 draft (he grew up a mad-keen Freo supporter and wants to stay in WA). Fremantle, under interim head coach David Hale, are playing away to Port in the final round of the season. Having suffered a horrendous run of soft-tissue injuries, an unprecedented string of 15 games being umpired by Jeff Dalgleish, the sacking of a coach, and Peter Bell signing himself to a 2 year contract and playing in the forward pocket (and managing to keep Matera out of the team), Freo won only 5 games for the season, and are currently sitting in 16th place. A win will likely bump Freo up to 13th, and a loss could see them drop to as low as 17th.

i. Do you play all of your best players, or do you let the ones that need minor surgery start their rehab a week early?
ii. Do you want to get one last look at Lloyd Meek or Shane Kersten before deciding their fate in the offseason?
iii. Do you see how Duman goes playing as a wingman or defensive forward, knowing spots in the backline are hard to come by?
iv. Do you start Sam Sturt or Hugh Dixon in the forward line to give them a taste of AFL football even though you suspect they’ll give you less output than Hayden Ballantyne and Rory Lobb?

All of those are legitimate list management questions, and for each one I suspect you answer based on the long-term interests of the club at the expense of a greater chance of winning that one game. You probably don’t want to end the season by 150 points, but you’d want to try a few things.

But the key question is ‘who wants Freo to win?’ The GM and the list manager holding the draft picks probably secretly want us to lose (GM/player Peter Bell suspiciously is responsible for 9 clangers in the game, trailing only Matt Taberner). The interim coach, who wants to have a job next year, probably wants to win unless it’s suggested to him that losing might be in the interests of the club and his career prospects, in which case he’s in a really difficult position. Most Freo fans probably won’t care that much by then, but the ones who are invested would probably rather have a gun WA midfielder in their team next year than beat Port in a meaningless game. The players on the park probably want to win, but they’d get a sense that their season really ended the previous week in a stirring narrow-defeat to Essendon the previous week.

Tanking is only an issue because teams would theoretically be rewarded for actually trying to lose, as opposed to not doing everything to win. You can crack down on teams being rubbish at hiding it all you like, but as long as there is a reward for being dodgy, some clubs will be dodgy.

Get rid of the incentive to lose, and it doesn’t matter if former ruckman Hale plays 6 ruckman in a game as an experiment, you can be assured the coach, those 6 ruckmen and 16 other blokes, the GM and the fans are all hoping for a win.

I also have no issue with clubs ‘resting’ players before finals, or jockeying for a better match up. The aim is to win a premiership, and if that means throwing a round 22 game, so be it.

My two preferred solutions:

At the bottom of the table: either have a weighted draft lottery for non-finals teams, or weigh the draft position over the last three years finishing position

At the top of the table: do nothing, or if you felt like being wacky, the highest placed teams pick their opponents for the finals (so if Richmond finishes top, they get to pick which of 3rd or 4th they play in their final).
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shane If it looks like a duck 5 years 4 weeks ago #24

shane
My comments were based around the idea that the AFL deliberately have their head in the sand.

I think the AFL should make it clear that every game needs to be played to win.
You can't put a horse in a race and pull it up so it will be fresher next week.

No resting leaving out players or playing the kids. Put your best team on the ground and play it hard because thousands of people paid you money to watch a hard played game of football. TV stations paid you money to put on a show so they could sell advertising and subscriptions.

But they need to make that tell everyone that before they act on it because it's a reversal of the current position.
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The_Yeti, pollyanna said You Beaut

Raglan Matt If it looks like a duck 5 years 4 weeks ago #25

Raglan Matt
Shane, I agree, the AwFL do treat this as a case by case situation, so they look after their own best interests, hence the head in the sand when they feel the need to ignore cheating.

However, the biggest elephant in the room in this argument is the gambling elephant. Punters want to see their money get a fair go, and if scenarios like the Dean Bailey episode are playing out, then the law needs to step in if the AFL wont. The Racing, Gaming and Liquor boards in each state should be ensuring that the AFL do not allow these things to happen below the radar. Instances like Freo sending a bunch of kids to Launceston are not in the same league as Bailey deliberately making sure Melbourne lose, because anyone looking at Freo's team on Thursday night is going to say "I wont back them at 3 to 1, but if they blow out to 50 to 1, I might have a flutter. However, if Melbourne put up a team close to their best 22 up against GC, you would back them at 2 to 1. Not knowing, because it is not general knowledge available to the public, that Melbournes' best 10 or 12 players are not trying.
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shane If it looks like a duck 5 years 4 weeks ago #26

shane
You don't agree with me then.
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Walter the baker If it looks like a duck 5 years 4 weeks ago #27

Walter the baker
Shane, if we ever sent out a team to deliberately lose I’d be disappointed. Managing players as we did before a final a few years back and sending out an under strength team is totally different to tanking. In that example the club was still trying to win the game while giving themselves the best chance in the finals. That’s vastly different to telling your coach to stay under 4 wins to get priority picks.
As for your suggestion that there was no evidence of the club tanking: “Included was a startling confession from then coach Dean Bailey, who said his job would have been at risk if the Demons were to win games.”
And now we hear that the current head of the AFL didn’t really know what was meant by tanking, Seriously!!
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shane If it looks like a duck 5 years 4 weeks ago #28

shane
You'd be surprised but you don't know because, once you let a team rest players the motives are easily talk around. Which goes to the heart of it. This is all gossip essentially.

That's a quote from the article, not the report. The journalist was somehow startled by something that Bailey was on the record saying. It was denied by people above Bailey. Keeping in mind this was a few years later and Bailey had been sacked in the meantime and was trying to defend himself on charges of deliberately losing games.

I imagine his story would have been different if he'd not been sacked and wasn't having to defend himself. Just like you find it hard to believe your team ever tanked, even though you've seen them do things that leave you scratching your head.
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