Herkes tarafından bilinerek sevilen site olan 1xbet canlı adresi sizlere büyük avantajlar ile farklı bahis imkanları sunmaktadır. Bilindik bir firma olması nedeni ile her defasında yeni bir 1xbet güncel adrese taşınıyor. Paylaşılan adreslerden sizlere en uygun 1xbet türkiye giriş güncel adresine kolaylıkla hemen ulaşabilirsiniz. Sizlerde kolaylıkla her cihazınızda aktif olan 1xbet mobile ile bahis yaparak, üyelik oluşumunu halledebilirsiniz. Büyük promosyonlardan yararlanarak üyelik açmak için 1xbet live adresini kullana bilirsiniz. Üyelik oluşturduktan sonra kolaylıkla yatırım yapmak için mobil ödeme bahis kabul gördüğünü anlayabilirsiniz. Hiç bir yerde olmayan canlı bahis özelliklerini sizlerde hemen kullanın. Aktif bir şekilde işlem yapan canlı bahis sitesi editörler tarafından özenle araştırılarak seçilmiştir. Ülkemizde resmi yayın yapmayan sitelerin çoğu kaçak bahis adı altında görev yapmaktadır. İnternetten yayın yapan kaçak bahis siteleri kullanıcılarına yüksek oranlar sunan bir adrestir. Hemen sizlerde casino oyunun farkına ve eğlencesine varmak için kayıt oluşturun.
Forum
Index
Docker Discussions
Positions
  • Page:
  • 1
  • 2

TOPIC: Positions

KingKepler Positions 5 years 1 month ago #1

KingKepler
I’m interested to hear thoughts about the development of players for various positions on the footy field.

The view taken by many coaches particularly ours is that players need to be versatile and be able to play a number of positions around the ground.

My view is there are probably a handful of players where this can be done due to their individual talent but I don’t think on the whole it can work very well. Most players should just be played to their strength and remain in that position and be coached to reach their highest potential in that position. Rather than becoming a jack of all trades and a master of none.

I’m happy seeing a key defender or ruckman that can be played forward on occasion but I don’t like all this messing around with blokes that should be on the wing played at half back and midfielders playing as ‘defensive’ half forwards.

I realise that by playing a game plan which involves the whole ten defending for large part of the game makes this difficult but surely it messes with a players head when he has no clue from one interchange to the next what he’s supposed to be doing?

AFL is a unique game but no other sport I can think of has a requirement to be good in every position other than maybe triathlon or a steeplechase athlete.

Is cox a forward or a back?
Is Stephen hill a winger or a half back?
Is Walters a forward or a midfielder?
Is blakely a midfielder or half back?
How about Cerra and Brayshaw?
Barlow and deboer were classic midfielders yet made into half forwards didn’t seem to work too well.....
Fyfe and Mundy?

I would prefer to have 90% of the squad designated position and coached to be elite in that position rather than them being told they might be needed to play anywhere.

Some players may like the prospect of running around doing something different every week but in terms of a playing good consistent footy as team I’m not really sold on this approach.
Login to reply,
The_Yeti, DazzElle, Swoop1, teasea, Corporal Agarn, freo00, R.Lyon said You Beaut

Morgan Positions 5 years 1 month ago #2

Morgan
It's an interesting question. I can think of a few reasons why versatility is important from a coach's perspective. You never want to have to leave out very good players because there is already a better player at that position. So giving players a second string to their bow means a coach gets a better chance to pick the best 22 players, and a player more chance to get selected.

Take Blakely the last couple of years. With Fyfe, Neale and Mundy all ahead of him as inside mids the only way he was going to log significant minutes was to play somewhere other than right in the middle. Playing in the backline meant he got a game, got to build his career, and Freo got a good young player on the park who could extract the ball in defence. He probably never imagined having to learn defensive positioning and spoiling, but doing so helped him and the team. When Neale left, everyone was of the view he could slot into the midfield, in part because he was versatile enough to keep playing last year.

I think it also allows you to match-up with other teams. Our midfield will be ok in a year to two, but we're a bit light-on this year. If we're playing a team with a big, strong midfield, I can see why you might like to throw someone like Hogan in the middle for spells. If the ball isn't coming out, or our hands aren't clean, I can see why you'd want to throw Walters in the middle for his elite decision-making and skills. Ideally, I'd have both forward, but being flexible can help you in games.

In a perfect world, you'd have a perfectly balanced squad and no injuries, but that is the exception rather than the rule, and players that are versatile helps smooth that out.

As to whether it affects players development, I don't think I can speak to that. On the one hand being versatile means you are more likely to get a game as a young bloke, and learn a different facet of the game, but on the other you get less reps in your specific niche. It's not obvious to me which is better.



As to other sports, I think soccer and basketball are similar, in that there has been a trend towards more flexible teams.
Login to reply,

DS Positions 5 years 1 month ago #3

DS
Everyone’s a half back.
Login to reply,
Blue1red1, The_Yeti, pollyanna, Raglan Matt, teasea, freo00 said You Beaut

The_Yeti Positions 5 years 1 month ago #4

The_Yeti
Yeah, I dunno what basketball games you watch but players are trained for particular roles, often determined by their physical attributes not coaching decisions.

You won't see too many point guards playing as centres or vice versa. Forwards are the big hulking man mountain types while the guards are smaller and quicker. Sure you can get taller guards but nothing like one of the forwards.

Same for soccer. Successful teams sign players who are specialists in a position and that is where they get played unless injuries force undesired changes. Again, you won't see many centre backs playing as strikers or the other way around.

Of course, I'm talking about successful teams not the teams they beat. I just wish Freo was one of those successful teams.

Flexibility is another nonsense put up as a smokescreen. If you want a player who can play equally well in multiple positions, then you need to have a squad of 42 Pavlichs. Other than that, you play your players where they can perform to their best. Diluting that effort in some sort of quest for this mythical flexibility is just that, diluting your efforts. That is not a recipe for success. That is just the excuse you fall back on when you play all your tall forwards across the half back line.

But again, I'm talking successful teams who oddly enough, seem to derive some success by using their players to their best advantage and not weaken the side by forcing them into unsuitable positions and then dropping them when they are not an instant success.

You can try but you cannot truly defend that level of stupid!
Egurls Suck!
Login to reply,
Raglan Matt, KingKepler said You Beaut

Raglan Matt Positions 5 years 1 month ago #5

Raglan Matt
Is cox a forward or a back? Backman.
Is Stephen hill a winger or a half back? Wing.
Is Walters a forward or a midfielder? In the guts.
Is blakely a midfielder or half back? In the guts.
How about Cerra and Brayshaw? Wing/half back
Login to reply,

KingKepler Positions 5 years 1 month ago #6

KingKepler
You make some good points Morgan and I’m keen to understand what people reckon we should go about it to be a premiership winning team.

I realise pigeonholing players into a position is a difficult concept for a coach but it kind of makes things easier for a coach as well. Instead of shuffling your best 22 around if a player goes down injured how about taking the approach of bringing in the best bloke from the reserves in that position to develop the depth?

We seem to try players in all sorts of different positions in the WAFL to see how they go e.g. Kersten as a defender but does it actually develop the squad we need?

Crozier, Sutcliffe, Sheridan etc were never really given the chance to shine in their best position and always playing different roles. Some may say they were not good enough anywhere but I reckon all three of them had the potential to be good on the half back line or as small defenders but they could never settle into those positions. For many professional footy players there has to be advantages to honing your skills in one position and staying there?
Login to reply,
Morgan said You Beaut

pollyanna Positions 5 years 1 month ago #7

pollyanna
Look at Buddy - as a junior he was always a forward. First few years in the bigs and he was always up forward. Then he was given the freedom to get up the ground and make an impact - the option was his to decide, only after his body got stronger. If you've got Buddy in your side, where would you play him?

Any reasonably intelligent coach would play him forward - a stupid idiot would have him in the ruck, running back to help out in the back 50, streaming up the wing, taking the kick out mark outside the defensive arc, etc.
Login to reply,
cletus, Raglan Matt, themagoos said You Beaut

Morgan Positions 5 years 1 month ago #8

Morgan
Yeti, no-one is suggesting Sandi plays as a roving forward pocket, it's a matter of degrees and nuance.

In the NBA, the potential of the greatest team of the last 20 years the Golden State Warriors was unlocked when they decided to play without a traditional centre. That meant their already undersized power forward Draymond Green shuffled along to the 5 spot, and had to defend the other team's centres and be the role man on the pick and roll. That is a subtle but important change that allowed them to maximise their historically great shooting at the other positions. That is versatility.

The second best NBA team last season turned their shooting guard (James Harden) into their primary ball hander, and he won the MVP as a point guard They then added the best pure point guard of the last decade (Chris Paul) to the team, meaning the team had ostensibly two point guards. They each had to learn how to play off the ball, and but for injuries might have beaten Golden State. That is versatility.

Even Ben Simmons, who at 6'9 has the build of a power forward and the shooting touch of a house brick was turned into a point guard because he was such a good passer. On the defensive end he defends power forwards, then brings the ball up on offence. That is versatility.

I don't watch a lot of soccer these days, but again, no-one is asking a centre-back to turn into a striker. The versatility comes from wing-back being able to play as a traditional winger, or a striker being able to go wide in a three-man formation, or a central midfielder being able to play a more defensive role in front of the back four if needed. That sort of flexibility allows manager to play different formations.

Not everyone needs to be able to play every position, or even should, but having flexibility in your squad is a great thing to have.

Like Duffield before him, I could see Wilson occasionally being used up the ground a bit more because he's such a good kick (wouldn't you love to see him get on the end of a few handballs and slot one from 55), but at the same time he's such a great kick down back, you'd hate to lose him.

I think Cox will be a better forward than backman, but if A Pearce breaks his leg again I can see him having more value as a backman because we have more cover forward. The question is whether you hurt his development as a forward by also teaching him to play back. Does the experience as a backman help him be a better forward, or deprive him of the opportunity to learn the forward craft? It's not an easy question. Banfield is a good run-with player, but if you only play him in that role do you take away the chance for him to learn how to win the ball. Ideally you should have players who can do both depending on the matchup and the situation of the game.

As for Buddy, the qualifying final we played against Sydney in Sydney was telling. SCOS towelled him up in the 50, so Buddy went onto the wing, and basically won the game for them there because SCOS couldn't keep up with him up the field. That's versatility. If Sydney only played him in the 50 we might have had a chance to win that game.

I think Lyon might have overplayed the versatility line, but I do think you need players who can play a couple of different roles.
Login to reply,
Bizkit, cletus, R.Lyon said You Beaut

Raglan Matt Positions 5 years 1 month ago #9

Raglan Matt
Yeah, Morgan, Buddy did that in that one game. Pick 1 player out of a thousand, in one game out of thousands to prove your point. I'm with Poly & co on this. (By the way Dramon Green got a Natanui/ Sam Mitchell/Judd like run from officials and the NBA version of the MRP which helped him beat the big centres, just ask Steven Addams.)
Login to reply,

The_Yeti Positions 5 years 1 month ago #10

The_Yeti
Theres a hell of a difference between a point guard and a shooting guard...oh wait, not there isn't. One has a more defensive role while the other has an offensive focus. Those positions have similar requirements, so swapping players due to injury or suspension will only result in a lower level of loss but there will still be some loss of capability

Its the same in soccer, and I do watch a bit of that. You can have half backs who can drift forward and score but their specific role is to work the goalie and keep behind the ball. Classic example is Virgil Van Dyke for LFC. Yes he scored goals this year but his primary function has been to keep the backs organised and direct the attacks further up field but you would never, ever waste his talents by putting him on a wing. That requires a completely different type of player.

As for Cox, he's either a back or a forward and the team situation says he has to be a back. Actually I agree he is a better forward but we've suddenly bought too many of them. He's not going to be a back and a forward. He doesn't have the speed for that. Realistically he doesn't have the speed to be a back but if he is going to do that, leave him there to learn the role and gel with the other backs.

Swapping players up and down the field is still not a formula for success. It is something you point at after you've lost again and mutter something about bears.

You still ignore the central issue of playing the players where they give you the most impact and the most value. You simply cannot get that when you play them out of position unless they are a freak like Pavlich and he was a one in a million player. Lesser players (99.9%) don't perform at his level unless they play in their specialist position
Egurls Suck!
Login to reply,
freo00 said You Beaut

Morgan Positions 5 years 1 month ago #11

Morgan
RM, I'm strangely comforted that you dislike the NBA refs as much as AFL umpires. I wasn't trying to cherry-pick with Buddy, and I reckon there are heaps of examples. When I think of versatility I think of some of those great Hawthorn teams. You had Hodge, who could play as a midfielder or backline general. You had Burgoyne, who could play anywhere on the field, you had Roughhead who could go into the ruck. You had lots of interchangeable midfield types who ran around kicking well. They even tried to turn Rioli into midfielder. Clarkson got that one very wrong, and those hamstring injuries could have ended Rioli's career.

Yeti, I think the flexibility coaches talk about is really at the margins, akin to the positional changes your are talking about in soccer. The exception is KPP players in the AFL. Guys who are 198cm tall and good at footy are pretty rare, so sometimes you experiment with playing them at different ends in very different roles. Take West Coast and McGovern. He's the best marking back in the league, but if the situation requires it (usually injuries), they'll play him forward. That sort of flexibility really helps.

But I don't know if it hurts. I guess it depends on whether you buy into Galdwell's 10,000 hours rule. If you do, then you're depriving players of a chance to master a position. But then you can weigh against that giving Cox (as a backman) a chance to learn how a good forward goes about his craft by playing on a few. I think that would be helpful.

I probably don't have a strong view about it. It's not like I think Ballas should play as a back pocket. But I can definitely see the benefit in Cerra playing a few different roles while he's learning the game and filling out, and I can see the benefit in Cox being a swingman for a while.

And KK to answer your questions:

Is cox a forward or a back? Better forward, but probably a back when needed.
Is Stephen hill a winger or a half back? When fit a winger, but if he's hobbled a bit by injury half back.
Is Walters a forward or a midfielder? I would always have him forward. We need his class finishing.
Is blakely a midfielder or half back? Midfielder.
How about Cerra and Brayshaw? Eventually both on-ballers, and I reckon Brayshaw will play that way this year, but I can see Cerra being used lots of different places. I think we could use his sense and class in the forward line. Eventually, once he's fully grown, I could actually see Cerra as a sweeping backman/midfielder like Hodge was.
Login to reply,

pollyanna Positions 5 years 1 month ago #12

pollyanna
My eyes hurt after reading through most of that - if there was a joke in there can you highlight it for me Morgan? Cheers.
Login to reply,
Alvin Prpl, R.Lyon said You Beaut

The_Yeti Positions 5 years 1 month ago #13

The_Yeti
Yeah but we are not talking about 'minor changes at the margins'. We are talking wholesale acts of stupidity.

Trying to turn a lightly built S Hill from a speedy wingman to an inside mid. So he bulks up, loses a bit of speed and then spends the rest of his career battling soft tissue leg injuries. At exactly the same time, we are taking a highly successful inside mid in Barlow, telling him that he's not needed as an inside mid, then telling him he isn't cutting it as a half forward and then delisting him.

Or indeed the early games last year where we played Tabs at half back and Cox at full back and Ballantyne was our sole forward. That worked well. We got smashed....again.

Thats just a few examples. That is not flexibility. that is madness.

What part of any of that makes sense?
Egurls Suck!
Login to reply,
cletus, Raglan Matt, freo00 said You Beaut

Morgan Positions 5 years 1 month ago #14

Morgan
I never rated Hill as an inside midfielder, and I thought Harvey asked too much playing him there. In Harvey’s defence, we had a heap of injuries and very few other options.

I also thought we stuffed Medhurst around terribly. I always thought playing McPharlin forward was a mistake (his goal kicking was rubbish).

I think it can go both ways. I loved the look of Fyfe as a young bloke in the forward line, then he won a Brownlow as an inside mid. Crowley was an average half forward who became our greatest ever tagger.

Sorry Polly, I’ll make sure in the future I add in a joke every thousand words or so.
Login to reply,
Blue1red1, pollyanna said You Beaut
  • Page:
  • 1
  • 2
Forum
Index
Docker Discussions
Positions