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Morgan 211 5 years 7 months ago #29

Morgan
Yeti, ‘to mark a ball on a lead’ is the key part of my post. You don’t need to be a leading forward to take marks and kick goals. Tabs proves that.

But you do need acceleration and timing to be a leading forward. Tabs doesn’t.

RM and Cletus would have Tabs starting in the square and trying to beat his man on the lead. My point is that wouldn’t be playing to his strengths, which is to use his height to take marks over smaller blokes, and use his ability to get up the ground when they put a bigger player on him.

Rance’s closing speed would mean Tabs would never mark out in front. You’d be better off Tabs moving back to the square where his reach would trouble Rance, as it has in the past.
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The_Yeti 211 5 years 7 months ago #30

The_Yeti
I know what you said and it's wrong.

If you are legitimately claiming that Tabs is better used by staying in the square and using his height, then I'll repeat what I said earlier and ask if you actually watch our games. Standing in the same confined area makes it much easier to double team or scrag a player to nullify any height advantage. Tabs can move quite well and his contested marking when moving towards the ball is proof that staying in the square is exactly the wrong approach.

Tabs problem is usually having to run back into the forward 50 and quite often, he's behind the ball. Those calling for him to 'BE ABLE' to lead forward towards a team mate are quite correct. Its a damn sight harder than remaining in the one place and having defenders able to corowd that space.

You don't need super speed to beat a defender if the ball is delivered to your advantage. As for Rance, last Friday night absolutely proved that. The ball was delivered to the advantage of the Collingwood forwards and Rance's most effective play of the night was when he tackled his own team mate. He was thrashed all night...thanks in a large part to the Collingwood mids.

RM and Cletus have it right. Not that it matters as Roly generally plays him behind the ball for most of the game.
Egurls Suck!
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cletus 211 5 years 7 months ago #31

cletus
So Morgan....they havent got the pace, acceleration or agility to beat quality backs you say, but they have enough of all the above factors to play Roly's gameplan....ie run all the way back, create the fustercluck, get posession of the ball, then run and spread forward, and hopefully they've got the skills to allow a pathway to goal.

Its just so senseless!! Apart from the fact that generally, after doing all the above - maybe a few times in vain - they are 'too stuffed' to kick the ball accurately.

Again, just senseless. !

'Our bloke' is using a 'too smart by half' gameplan that is completely confounding to young, inexperienced players, has high chance of failure, consistently leads to low scoring patterns, is an ugly, unattractive and inefficient way to play footy, and can easily be broken down by every other team in the league by the application of pressure.

And yet, not only do we allow 'our bloke' to continue to do it - unfettered and never queried - what concerns me most, - is that blokes like you & Jezza continue to fly his flag , and, in your case, your excusing him doing it that way because - in short - 'we haven't got the cattle'.

It is no fluke that 3 of the final 4 teams in the finals utiilse atrategies that have atay at home forward lines, and that they achieve high scoring outcpmes as a result. If Hogan was involved in the finals, you'd probably find that would be 4 out of 4.

Is it just because 'they've got the cattle' to do this, or is it because the strategy has allowed the players to 'shine' ..
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DazzElle said You Beaut

Morgan 211 5 years 7 months ago #32

Morgan
Yeti, I think you are searching for an interpretation of my posts that isn't there. I'm neither saying our players should never lead at the ball, nor am I saying they should pitch a tent in the goal square.

As I said, both Cox and Tavs are better running around and then getting to the right spot than they are leading from the square or just standing in it. Movement is the key, but a hard Jason Dunstall style lead from the square isn't playing to their strengths. Hell, even Dustall would struggle with so many opposition midfielders in his way these days.

I think both Tabs and Cox would be excellent foils for a genuine key forward with size, explosive pace and footy nous. Seeing as we don't, we have two players with similar strengths and weaknesses running around in the same forward line. Sometimes we just need someone who can lead up and get the ball. We don't really have that at the moment. I know the inclination is to blame the coach, but I just don't know who we have who could play that role. In the past we'd cover for our lack of leading talls by having Ballas and Mayne as the hit-up forwards. We don't even have smalls or mid-sized players who can do that at the moment.

'Why doesn't anyone lead from the square?' as a comment belongs in the cannon with 'kick it long' and 'man up'. It's not to say you should'd do those things, but the game has moved on bit. I don't think our forward movement is great, nor are our entries, but telling Cox and Tabs to lead from the square isn't the solution.
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rogerrocks said You Beaut

Raglan Matt 211 5 years 7 months ago #33

Raglan Matt
Morgan, Cox didn't take those marks because he was taller than Rance & co (look at Sandi for an example of how that is not a truism.) He took them because he was moving towards the flight of the ball, and was able to meet it at the optimum point while those around him were standing under the ball, or coming from behind him and unable to spoil effectively.

If Taberner went 1 on 1 with Rance, (or McGovern or any other back) and was leading at the kicker, as he has proven he would win or halve the contest. What we need is for him to be doing that inside 50, not on the half back flank. To mark the ball inside 50, within goal kicking range, he has to lead from the square. It is NOT rocket surgery. Give up on the flawed ideas of the false messiah and get with the modern game Morgan, Jezza I have given up on the idea you can see beyond Lyon's nose.
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The_Yeti, cletus, DazzElle said You Beaut

rogerrocks 211 5 years 7 months ago #34

rogerrocks
So look at the Eagles and yes, you'll find Darling and Kennedy leading at the ball. But we've all seen them right down the ground taking marks as the ball comes out of the eagles defence. So how could they be there and be back leading out to the ball in the forward 50? They do it because the eagles have the composure to move the ball around outside their attacking 50, holding it up until something opens up (which may well involve Kennedy or Darling getting back and turning around).
Our forwards look bad because our mids don't have the confidence, composure and skill to hold the ball up. As the team structure settles down and everyone knows where their teammates are and our young guys get more experience, we'll be able to do that too. But we can't do it yet - and McCarthy, Cox, Tabs, Ballas and Sonson pay the price.
And yes, I'd like a Mason Cox or a Hipwood as well.
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The_Yeti 211 5 years 7 months ago #35

The_Yeti
rr,

thats precisely what they've been doing. You'll also notice that Kennedy takes most of his marks uncontested because they hold off on delivering the ball until he starts to run into an open space. FWIW Kennedy isn't that quick either but you don't need to be if the ball is delivered forward properly.

Which brings us back to where we started - skills. Simpson made it a priority when he started at the slime, yet we still cannot get it acknowledged as important.

Speedy players is another Roly smokescreen. If you have the correct skills, you look significantly faster than your opposition. My old boss used to say, why outrun somebody you can outthink?
Egurls Suck!
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FDB 211 5 years 7 months ago #36

FDB
This is precisely it. The desire to be well inside fifty and leading into space at least vaguely towards the ball carrier is totally ingrained and instinctive for someone who wants to kick a goal.

They don't need to be squatting in the goalsquare like a troll under a bridge for that, they just need time once it looks likely the ball is heading that way to get up near the goals while the mids knock it around and look for the best avenue.

Bombing it in before the forwards are ready is a perennial Docker problem, and in Pav's absence it's much worse.
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goodie 211 5 years 7 months ago #37

goodie
Look, I know i am just another one adding to the pointless speculation that now occurs every year, but Gerard Whateley just said on SEN that Freo think they have Jesse Hogan.
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Corporal Agarn 211 5 years 7 months ago #38

Corporal Agarn
Rosich strikes!
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Mushroom 211 5 years 7 months ago #39

Mushroom
It seems to me that Whateley, Rosich, Morgan and Jezza think many things are right when they’re not.
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shane said You Beaut

Mushroom 211 5 years 7 months ago #40

Mushroom
P. S. I hope and often wish they were.
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shane said You Beaut
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