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TOPIC: Why Disgruntled

Jason Why Disgruntled 5 years 7 months ago #43

Jason
The modern game often sees forward lines vacant when the ball is inside 50 at one end.

Like most teams, short of a horrendous turnover by the team already inside their 50 and a quick kick out to the wings - we’ve had plenty of forwards (though the quality this season was hampered by injuries to Tabs & Walters) available to receive - but hitting these targets consistently proved an issue.

Cammac looks lost at times - running away from the ball carrier rather than towards. That makes hitting the target even harder. Other times the mids didn’t move it on quickly enough to allow one-on-ones before teams flood back. But I also think that was due, in part, to the quality (or lack their of) of the forwards they’re kicking too.

Again - it comes down to skill execution as the primary issue.

I never said all 55,000+ members must support, in their entirety, the club’s direction. But what is patently obvious, if there were less than 2% of members who were of similar views to the more, let’s say, pessimistic on here - our membership numbers would be falling - not rising.

Just to provide some perspective in terms of a side who has suffered an even steeper decline than us - the Bulldogs - their membership dropped 8% (or about 3,800) between 2017-18 having jumped 20% (or about 8,000) from their flag year to 2017.

Ours climbed 14% between 2017-18, having declined by 1.2% (or roughly 600 members) between 2016-17 - when we hit rock bottom. That was after 5 years of year-on-year growth starting in 2012.

Hardly the sort of mass exodus one would expect if the fans weren’t, in the main, supporting the club’s chosen path - despite the short-term pain it’s resulted in.

Some might choose to interpret those numbers in a more subjective manner - such as they would be higher if we:
1. changed coach
2. played more ‘attractive’ footy- whatever that is
3. sacked the CEO/Head of Footy/Board/etc.
4. ??

But as with all subjective arguments, they are impossible to quantify - which often works to the advantage of those who don’t like facts getting in the road of a ‘good story’ (or a personal attack on those within the club they’d like to see gone).

I support Freo and it’s current direction. Not unequivocally or without criticism - I’ve made plenty of comments on here critical of team selections, drafting decisions, etc.

We are a team that was set up to ‘fail’ and have remained bottom-dwellers most of our history. All the hardcore nostalgia proponents who decry the change in jumper, training location, the pre-game ‘anchor’ routine, etc. should, therefore, be embracing our return to mediocrity - it’s what our history has been built upon after all. That is, losing was in our DNA prior to 2012.

However, recycling past comments of the coach or club (e.g. ‘no excuses’ or ‘sustained success’) from the most successful period since our inception - as justification for radical change now when so much else has changed (e.g. AFL interchange caps, player retirements/turnover) is grasping at straws, in my view.

But we’re all entitled to our opinions - not matter how marginal and subjective they may be.
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expat Why Disgruntled 5 years 7 months ago #44

expat
I seem to remember early in 2012 everyone was complaining about the game plan and style of play. Media outlets were ranting on about it being shocking to watch and the players unable to execute it. However, later in the year and especially 2013 that same game plan and style made Freo great.

I'm just hoping that history repeats as we've gone through some miserable times of late and lets hope that next time we're up the "sustained success" motto means they're working on the young guys bringing them through gradually and not just letting them see out their contracts at Peel.
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Jason Why Disgruntled 5 years 7 months ago #45

Jason
Good point expat, I think during that initial period of transition we copped a hiding from Weak Coast in the first Derby of 2012 and kicked our lowest ever Derby score.

We then went on and won the next 6 Derbies - the greatest winning streak in our history.

Just sayin’....
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Morgan Why Disgruntled 5 years 7 months ago #46

Morgan
I think we've covered the field about how the club has contributed to disgruntlement. Personally, I think one of the biggest predictors of disgruntlement is the disposition of someone to be disgruntled.

There were some bright signs early in the season, we didn't have enough class or physicality to hang with the best sides, and we hit the wall two-thirds of the way through the season. We still won 8 games, which is better than our last mini-rebuild in 2008/2009.

I thought our ball movement was a bit better in the back third (how good is Wilson!), and when we had our full compliment of tall forwards we looked capable of scoring, even when we didn't always turn those opportunities into goals. There's still a fair bit of work to go into our connection into the forward line - especially when we get monstered in the midfield - but I think another full season of Tabs/Cox/McCarthy will help, as would the availability of our most talented runners and users (imagine having the Hills, Walters, Bennell and Langdon running amok!).

Lyon cops a lot of criticism for not changing, but one of the biggest knocks on him was that he wouldn't play kids. I'm not sure he can be accused of that based on this year (in fact, I thought he swung a bit far the other way). I think another pre-season for our young guys will see some more consistent results.

I understand if people don't want to renew their seats next year. I still really enjoy going to games with my friends and family, but it's a lot of money if you aren't enjoying the experience of being a Freo Member.
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Wedge Antilles Why Disgruntled 5 years 7 months ago #47

Wedge Antilles
We can't be looking at the membership increase between 2017-18 as an endorsement of the club's direction. It was surely down to moving to a new stadium without seats that gave you a slipped disc and splinters.

You only have to look at how massively the Wildcats and Port crowds jumped due to moving to new stadiums to see what effect it has on clubs with room for more seated members.

A 14% increase is a terrible result and Rosich, List Manager, CEO, would know that, or at least he would if he possessed self-awareness.
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Jason Why Disgruntled 5 years 7 months ago #48

Jason
So, according to some, we play an unattractive, boring style of footy and the club has become a soulless, competition joke headed up by gormless leaders like Lyon, Rosich, Bond & Alcock.

Yet somehow a membership increase of 14% is ‘below par’ as it should have been higher moving to the new Stadium??? Don’t you just love subjective viewpoints?!!

Maybe as a better comparison, Weak Coast, who also moved into the new stadium and had 9,000 on a seating wait list - their membership increased by 23% (or about 14,000). So they only managed to attract an additional 5,000 members over and above their ‘In the wings’ numbers.

All of a sudden our 6,000+ membership increase looks quite healthy vs a team who had played finals for the previous 3 seasons in a row.

I know, I know, how dare I point out facts to destroy a subjective, personal attack on a club official.

Now time for the usual - you must be a sycophant if you don’t agree with me - responses.
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Raglan Matt Why Disgruntled 5 years 7 months ago #49

Raglan Matt
Jason, our membership increased by 14%, west coast , by 23%, That tells me that they have had a bigger increase than us, the waiting list doesn't come into it because if we were playing attractive, winning footy we would have probably had 14,000 to 16,000 on the waiting list too.
But don't let an objective appraisal of the facts turn your head away from your rose tinted view of the situation we find ourselves in. The view has become so dim that many of us have taken the glasses off and are seeing things in their real light.
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CaptSnooze Re:Why Disgruntled 5 years 7 months ago #50

CaptSnooze
3-match so-called memberships have been pitched to non members for a year or two, but the CEO makes no distinction between these and annual ones, when talking up the latest increase in membership numbers to the media. It's a junk stat that may actually represent erosion of revenue: be careful when basing arguments on that.

Also, Perth Stadium is a gamechanger, offering Freo fans choices in how to go about spending a decent, affordable afternoon at the footy. Exercising those choices is hardly jumping off a bandwagon. The goalposts for fans have definitely shifted this year.
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Morgan Why Disgruntled 5 years 7 months ago #51

Morgan
There is no 'real light'. There is just a bunch of fans doing their best to reconcile disappointing results with actions and decisions of people inside a football club. People and decisions they have no direct personal insight into. As Jason says, in those circumstances everyone is entitled to their opinion, but it's an opinion many steps removed from objectivity.

I expect people to have a dim view of certain members of the club, and throw around blame when Freo are bad, but it's the certainty of those views - held up as objective truths - that leaves me a bit surprised.
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Corporal Agarn Why Disgruntled 5 years 7 months ago #52

Corporal Agarn
Without going into a tit for tat point check again with JimB, for one a shaming list? Some were asked why are their complaints? I had a go at putting forward my reasons which interetingly enough a lot of people seemed to agree with. Nothing to do with shame.
Also you appear to come across as a lot more outraged than me juding by that. Maybe even somewhat vitriolic.
It's also the second time you've asked for and received Lyon's comment on a premiership by 2020.
Get your expectations right? I could say the same about you. My idea of a review is not one that is continuously held internally with nobody held accountable and nothing needed to be changed. But obviously you're okay with that.
We're all passionate Freo supporters here but that doesn't mean we have to see eye to eye. Expectations obviously differ. I'll be more than happy to eat humble pie if we turn things around a lot more quickly than expected. Perhaps I'm just not as patient as you.
As for that sip of beer, good idea, and cheers for when you have a needed one as well.
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Drubbing Re:Why Disgruntled 5 years 7 months ago #53

Drubbing
New stadium, Jason.

That's as good a buffer against falling numbers as you'll find. Numbers have been maintained, given they dropped in 2017. Many long timers like myself (16 years), voted with their wallet last year. Others who haven't been able to get regular seats took our place.

Plus, they sold packaged 3 and 5 game seats to get people in, when things were going tits up. I reckon they count those as 'memberships' too. Plus, virtually giving some seats away for some games to get numbers up.

They've grown next to nothing. I think you'll find the quality of football the last few years, not just this one, has to do with that.
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Mushroom Why Disgruntled 5 years 7 months ago #54

Mushroom
Oh, my friend and chop of porcine origins.

Say what you like about all the non-reasons for it, but you don't get flogged, on average, by eleven goals away from your home ground just by a bit of footskill error. That's on average. The total of the flogged amount divided by the number of floggings.

There's been a scarcity of substance to my club for a long time. One might argue for 25 years. But clearly what was there has been corroding for the past 5 years, at least. To the point where I have not enjoyed watching my team with friends and family less in my life.

The year after opening a stadium is not the one to spout on membership figures. Perth people are weird. They seem to go places for all the reasons other than what they are going to see. Cockburn Central is a prime example.

There's a fair bit of pollard in the way the club has treated its members over said 5 year corrosion period. The performance on the field and the poor ability to score, not just goals but any score, is just cut after cut after cut. Eventually, death follows those thousand cuts. And this is what Fremantle football has become to me. Dead.

It's just hollow. Whether it is Lyon's fault, or Rosich, or Alcock, or the other Steve I can't even remember what he looks like now my mind is so awash with blandness, I don't care. I don't. But when you're in the figurehead position that these people are in, you take the responsibility whether it is your fault or not. To be sure you take the accolades whether they are your doing or not.
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Bizkit Why Disgruntled 5 years 7 months ago #55

Bizkit
A few points there Jason.

Just on Cammac leading away from the ball carrier, don't you think that is due to the way we structure up ahead of the ball? It's not something he ever did at GWS or in his year before being drafted. He is a lead up forward who uses his timing, speed and smarts to beat opponents on the lead but under RL he has been forced up the ground and then sprinting towards goal for balls over the top. It's pretty harsh to be pinning the blame on him for the way we play football.

As for membership, you say it's subjective yet you use it to justify your position. Obviously the change in stadium and thus the allowance for more seats makes a huge difference. If you take into consideration things like a limit to useable seating at Subi and people wanting to check out the new stadium there's always going to be a jump in the current year. Neither are the Dogs a good comparison (we dropped far further than them in 2015-16) as a suburban Melbourne club, they have far less capacity for expansion with our numbers on the rise due to actually having available seating at a new stadium. It's silly to compare.

For example, our home attendances have gone up 9k (32k to 41k) on last year which is entirely dependent on a new stadium. It's still only 5k up on 2015 (36k) when we were relevant and had 50k members (which had increased to 51k over the past 2yrs).

It's misleading to deduct in the wings members from the OOFTIT's rise in member numbers too as they were included in their previous totals, they just didn't have seats which meant their attendances didn't reflect their member numbers. Their membership number went up by 15k (65k to 80k) this year and it was reflected in their attendances (36k to 53k). In either case, this year is a mute point if you were trying to use those figures to justify a coaches position. This year to next would be a more interesting take.

It's very disingenuous and a sign on your thoughts of the club at the time to say we were embracing mediocrity or nostalgic for failure. We enjoyed successful periods before RL and were clearly on the path to success again under Harvey. Whether he would have made it or not, who knows. I think so but we'll never be able to judge. All we can say is RL failed.

RL's hypocritical words aren't used to justify opposing him as coach either, they are more evidence of his snake oil salesman twisting of words. He was here to sell success in an 'at all costs' manner but failed to do that. Calling him out on only three years of winning is perfectly justifiable given our past 3 years of failure.

It should also be mentioned, no one was publicly or privately abusing Harvey's game plan. They weren't happy with him playing injured players (which imo was a necessity given the state of our list) and for big losing margins away (again due to the high injury toll and playing of injured players). The game plan stuff came up later through Pav's book which I guarantee was not an opinion held by all players. many loved the freedom they enjoyed under Harvey and felt that enabled them to back themselves and beat anyone which we did.

On the kids Morgan, the knock was more the development of kids and that they didn't come through. He inherited more mature and battle ready squads ready for premiership tilts and so had little need to develop more kids. Now that he's had a few years of it, I don't think much has happened there to convince me otherwise.
Nathan: When did you get balls?
Simon: I've always had balls you've just never seen them.
Nathan: That's the gayest thing I've ever heard.
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Jason Why Disgruntled 5 years 7 months ago #56

Jason
RM. we had a seated membership waiting list of zero vs WC 9,000 - but you want to claim we should have been able to attract at least the same number of new members as them?? I’m asssuming you’d argue we would have if we had a different coach, played more ‘attractive’ footy, kept the anchor blah blah blah.

So, in effect, that 9,000 doesn’t count in your view? And yet you claim to be ‘objectively’ comparing figures.

Give me a break.

And on the topic of different types of memberships somehow diluting the true figure. The AFL tightened the eligibility rules in 2016 around what an actual ‘member’ had to pay to stop some of the Vic clubs, in particular, padding up their numbers with cheap membership ‘options’. Now you must spend at least $50 and receive a membership pack for it to be counted in the official figures. So, again, nice try to downplay the growth figures but again you’re relying upon ‘the vibe’ rather than the facts.
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