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TOPIC: He makes some good points

Morgan He makes some good points 5 years 8 months ago #113

Morgan
For the record, we are 8th for disposal efficiency. It's the clsoest we'll get to any top 8 all year.

By comparison, we are:

17th for tackles
17th for contested possessions
16th for intercepts
15th for clearances
14th for contested marks
14th for efficiency inside 50
10th for goal accuracy
9th for turnovers

When I look at that list of ineptitude, I'm not sure the first thing that jumps out is that we should be spending more time on skills.
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Azlan said You Beaut

guy smiley He makes some good points 5 years 8 months ago #114

guy smiley
We're only 8th best is another way of looking at that.

Not good enough.
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blockerhall He makes some good points 5 years 8 months ago #115

blockerhall
Always been a knock on Hill's kicking, even at Hawthorn. His run and carry was always elite.

I'm sure he loves it here with Ross. <roll eye>

I think it fair to say that the bastardry that shafted harvey seems incredibly absent now with Lyon. Anyone care to reason why?
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Raglan Matt He makes some good points 5 years 8 months ago #116

Raglan Matt
Most of that disposal efficiency comes from kicking it 15 meters sideways on kickins, then potting it around the backline for 10 or so kicks uncontested while the forwards run back to the forward line, and all the stats you mention that we are deficient in are as a result of that "disposal efficiency". I would like to see stats on effective meters gained, effective meters gained per clearance win, effective meters gained per turnover win, and effective meters gained per player. That will tell the story
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exceed He makes some good points 5 years 8 months ago #117

exceed
The discussion of freo stats reminds me of great comedic episode in Yes Minister ( for those old enough), where Humphrey was espousing to the minister the great health statics being achieved of a newly opened hospital.
But as the minister pointed out , this hospital had no patients!!!

Guys the eye does not lie , our skills are below AFL standard and are so far off the elite sides it is beyond comprehension.

To think a professionally trained team can have a pre season , be taught by a dozen skilled coaches , supported by a medical unit and to have played 22 rounds of team football and produce the abomination of historically bad performance as on the weekend is mind boggling.
They could have simply turned up to the game , met each other for the first time and not produced a less inept performance.
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Raglan Matt, Burton said You Beaut

Flag_2005 He makes some good points 5 years 8 months ago #118

Flag_2005
Interesting stats Morgan. The stats re tackles, contested possessions and clearances speak to a bunch of young kids (and Brandon Matera) getting monstered in centre square and around the ground stoppages which is what we see most weekends (particularly with the lengthy absences of Sandi and Fyfe).
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Wedge Antilles He makes some good points 5 years 8 months ago #119

Wedge Antilles
Jason, I didn't cut Harvey some slack due to injuries. I said "We were absolutely decimated by injury in 2011 and Harvey didn't handle it well. Lyon was probably the right call at the time because of that."

Harvey maybe deserved to go because he lost the plot tactically when we were decimated by injuries. Lyon has similarly lost the plot due to both injuries and having a team that doesn't fit his rigid style of play.

You said we weren't taken seriously until 2012. That's not true. We were taken seriously in 2010 and Barlow was the catalyst for that. As I said, when he went down, we lost our momentum which is why we "limped into the finals" in the same way that our momentum was destroyed when Sam Mitchell indirectly broke Nat Fyfe's leg in his Brownlow year.

We now have a totally different team and Lyon is not the right fit. That doesn't mean he isn't a great coach when he has the right players, but he doesn't have the right players anymore. It wouldn't be a problem for a more flexible coach and/or a team that could attract players and/or a team that doesn't have it's base at Cockburn Central.

By the way, we may well get a worse replacement but if we're keeping an underperforming coach because he's the best we can get then there are bigger issues.
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freo00 said You Beaut

Suker He makes some good points 5 years 8 months ago #120

Suker
I don't reckon most of us want simply attractive footy...whatever that is. We can see that all successful teams of last decade at least, have placed defence as number one priority (quote hawks Burgoyne). Defence is not a position on the ground, but when they have it we are all defenders. Fair enough. But, that defence has to be coupled with the ability to attack aggressively and quickly. Playing with a regular 7 man backline makes it difficult, because straight away you are conceding that, firstly the extra is needed, and secondly the forward line are outnumbered...which sort of hints that either you have complete faith in that outnumbered forward line, or that you value limiting scores more so than scoring yourself.
I certainly am not a fan of a shootout...but scoring is the ultimate pressure act, and we don't seem to value this enough. Of course, that is probably a wrong assumption...but it feels that way over the last few years.
I remember a game at subi when we absolutely smashed North...from memory we only scored 12 goals and they scored four. It was impressive, BUT, it maybe could have been 20 plus to 8. Players love scoring...and gee, they need to have some fun don't they? And percentage is so important in the final washup of the eight.
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guy smiley, Derby12, Corporal Agarn, freo00 said You Beaut

Bizkit He makes some good points 5 years 8 months ago #121

Bizkit
Some revised history there Jason, especially in regards to 2010. Sure, we lost to the Hawks in Tassie by a big margin but do you not remember the outroar against Harvs for resting everyone from the trip and playing the likes of Ruffles, Crichton, Bollenhagen, Hinkley and co instead of his stars? New rules were brought in as a result as we then went and beat the Hawks 2wks later in the finals. About the only time we looked like beating the Hawks structures across the past decade.

We copped a far worse injury run in 2011 than any season in our history which had the board jumping at shadows despite such an incredibly promising few years leading up to it. We were still very much in the finals hunt despite those injuries, losing our final 7 games to just miss out. In the final round that season vs the Dogs, we were almost forced to apply to the AFL for a special allowance to bring up players from the WAFL to fill our 22, our injury list was that bad. And that doesn't include half the squad Harvs was blamed for playing injured as they were forced to carry injuries through the latter half of the season due to a lack of fit players in the 44 man squad.

It seems very easy for some people to come up with every excuse for RL but then cast aside any reasoning for the problems of the past and assume RL's magic made us a force for a short period. It's only because we brought in RL in 2012 we missed out on a massive chance at a premiership as the side were taught defensive, rigid structures.

I have no doubt you know exactly why our disposal efficiency is so high Morgan. Here's a hint: Analysis: "The Dockers don't exactly have an abundance of go-to contested marking targets – and even fewer when Matt Taberner and Aaron Sandilands are missing - so it's no major surprise they lead the League in effective short kick-ins"
Nathan: When did you get balls?
Simon: I've always had balls you've just never seen them.
Nathan: That's the gayest thing I've ever heard.
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guy smiley, Raglan Matt said You Beaut

Morgan He makes some good points 5 years 8 months ago #122

Morgan
I thought Harvey was very poorly treated, but that we ended up with a better coach. I have no idea whether that's true or not, but players who played under both seemed to suggest Lyon was a better coach.

If we dumped Lyon now I wouldn't lose any sleep over Lyon, but when the name bandied about to replace him is Peter Sumich, I can't say I'd be optimistic his replacement was any better. To pay millions of dollars for the privilege of replacing Lyon with Sumich doesn't seem like money well spent to me.

The smart play is to get a highly-regarded assistant coach to come over (as Harvey was to Connelly), and if things go well next year everyone wins. If it goes poorly you dump Lyon mid-season, upgrade the assistant as a caretaker, see how the rest of the year plays out and then make a coaching decision the next offseason.

That requires managing a bunch of egos between now and then, and I'm not sure how that would play out. It probably also requires someone to stand up to Lyon, and that doesn't seem likely to happen.
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rogerrocks, freo00 said You Beaut

demo1 He makes some good points 5 years 8 months ago #123

demo1
Thats easy then Morgan.
We get Jarrod Schofield onboard next year.
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Bizkit He makes some good points 5 years 8 months ago #124

Bizkit
A fear of Sumich (however much I agree) is not enough to continue with this rubbish. I'm all for overthrowing the board who've set us down this path too and hopefully getting a decent new coach who can develop a team to compete for a premiership.

There are other great minds out their in the footy world.
Nathan: When did you get balls?
Simon: I've always had balls you've just never seen them.
Nathan: That's the gayest thing I've ever heard.
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The_Yeti, Raglan Matt said You Beaut

guy smiley He makes some good points 5 years 8 months ago #125

guy smiley
Fear of Sumich?

excellent.. an ideal segue into some random reference to Talking Heads and a youtube from Fear of Music, but that would be flippant and missing a point.

I never used to rate Sumich. I reckon in my case it was the Taint of Ooftit... but those days are long gone and since then he's demonstrated a knack for getting a bunch of kids playing together well, he's completed the AFL prescribed coaching course which is becoming a thing to have and Freo have looked pretty crap since he left.

So I don't suffer a Fear of Sumich.

Here's an idea... Freo, as we've learnt recently, have to operate within a prescribed coaching salary cap and they've already used it all up. So IF they were to change coaches they'd be penalised financially. Now, quite aside from actually being able to cop that and survive, they could just offer the job to Sumich on a performance based contract starting on low coin and then backending to a decent salary after the two years of financial hardship are served. Put an incentive into doing well, cop a couple of years of penalty through paying two coaches with one on a starting wage and reap the good times in the 3rd year of his contract when the squad he assembles matures, his pay comes good and the carrot in front of the donkey turns into a chest of gold coins for winning a flag.

Sorted. Problem solved.

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FDB, Raglan Matt, Derby12, Corporal Agarn, freo00 said You Beaut

FDB He makes some good points 5 years 8 months ago #126

FDB
Cripes, Guy. Awesome number, but also quite replete with applicable lyrics.
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guy smiley said You Beaut