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TOPIC: Ben Allan

Bizkit Ben Allan 5 years 8 months ago #15

Bizkit
The average goals per game improves a bit when you throw the others that were down there for periods (or at least should have been) in Walters and Matera who did very little of use in the middle. I take your point about the quality of players up forward but there's more to it than that. They need opportunity.

Cox actually does really well 1v1 when given the opportunity as does Langdon who is a very good mark for his size. If you are asking payers to play on multiple players and make good position after running themselves ragged to get there from defence, then they are always going to struggle. You need to organise a way to goal that does not wreck your players and enables them to shine.

That doesn't happen at present and no solution is offered to fix it. It has also been a problem for a very long time, pretty much as soon as RL took over and we still had elite quality like Pav, AA Ballas and Walters there. I've seen no real attempt to fix it and now while we are rebuilding would be a perfect time to examine different strategies to get the ball forward more fluently. I haven't seen it as yet and trading personnel by throwing a KPD up forward is not any different.
Nathan: When did you get balls?
Simon: I've always had balls you've just never seen them.
Nathan: That's the gayest thing I've ever heard.
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Truthproject Ben Allan 5 years 8 months ago #16

Truthproject
Morgan, your point about our fwd line being full of kids and/or people with no history of goalkickers is accurate but your conclusion is not. This is typical Ross, he want them all to 'play a role' but the fact is the primary role requires having goal sense...actually being a natural forward. Collingwood play players with x-factor fwd; Stephensen, Degoey, Hoskin-Elliot...etc

We have players with goal sense but Lyon prioritizes everywhere else besides fwd line....Potential next year Fyfe, Walters, Matera, Bennell, Grey (pressure), Tabs, Cerra...with Darcy resting down there....thats as dangerous as most forward lines in the league on paper but we all know it wont happen...walters and fyfe in midfield and s.hill and blakey on a back flank.

For fucks sake a midfield of Blakely, Hill, Hill, Mundy, Neale, Langdon...Brayshaw..still shits on west coasts midfield..and hawthorns and the kangas...but alas
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Raglan Matt Ben Allan 5 years 8 months ago #17

Raglan Matt
Morgan, I still see too many of our forwards leading away from the player kicking the ball. That tells me they are not leading from the forward line. THAT tells me they are not in the forward line .
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Morgan Ben Allan 5 years 8 months ago #18

Morgan
I think some of the criticism of Lyon is valid, but one of the criticisms is that the team hasn't changed the way it has played under Lyon. Looking at our games this season I don’t think that’s true. One of those changes is we do have players forward. I can’t think of too many times in the last couple of months where a Freo player had the ball in the middle and had to wait for the forward line to fill up. I think there was one instance on Sunday, which is well below the AFL average.

If we had a new coach I’m sure people would comment on the fact we’ve gone from a contested ball-winning team to an outside running team in the last few years (we’re 6th in the league for uncontested possessions and second last for contested possessions). Despite having a young team, we’re a top 8 side for disposal efficiency. But the downside is we’re one of the worst clearance teams in the league (largely a personnel issue) which has changed. It’s much harder to score when you are losing on the ball.

I’m not a fan of playing Walters in the midfield, but the reality is he’s not a one-on-one target forward either. He’s actually a bit of liability as a target, so I can see the benefit of playing him a bit further up the ground where he can get the ball and be the guy kicking into the 50. He needs a few bodies and mayhem around him, where he can use his smarts and skills to make something happen. If we had a fit midfield Walters isn’t in there other than for short bursts.

I agree Cox has plenty of talent, but his go is to get to the right spot and have the player kick to his advantage where he can use his judgment to take a mark. That takes a fair degree of continuity by the team, and skill by the player kicking the ball. I reckon we’ll get there on both fronts, but we’re a long way off that at the moment as you’d expect from a team that hasn’t played much together. I don’t think that’s a structural thing, per se.

I also think people forget how important Fyfe and Sandi are to our forward line. Both are used floating down to create marking mismatches. In their absence, our marking power falls off a cliff. 4 contested marks on a sunny day is diabolical (the AFL average is around 11), but is partially explained by three of our top 4 contested markers (Tabs, Fyfe, and Sandi) being absent.

RM, I know you’d prefer to see players leading from the square. Who would it be exactly? Even if that was the way the game is played these days (it’s the exception rather than the rule), we don’t have the cattle for it. We just don’t have the players with that x-factor of timing, instinct and speed. Using Truthproject’s example, Stephensen, Degoey, Hoskin-Elliot were all top 5 picks. The highest pick in our forward line this week was Langdon at pick 54.

I’m not sure how you structure a forward line if your forwards can’t beat people on a lead or take contested marks. The only suggested approach was from yeti, which was to get our smaller players to lead to the pockets, which I think has a few problems.
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Corporal Agarn Ben Allan 5 years 8 months ago #19

Corporal Agarn
I guess it doesn't help when you don't draft any ready forwards or have any much to start with.

We spent the first half of the year playing Cerra there, who had only ever played in the midfield. The rest are either ruckmen(Jones), young or project players(Cox, Dixon, Strnadica), always injured(Apeness), never going to be a big marking forward(McCarthy) drafted as midfielders(Sheridan, Sutcliffe, Langdon) or sent to the backline when we don't have enough forward options(Kersten).

IMO if you want a good forward line or any position you need to plan ahead and recruit specifically for it. We never seem to have done this when it comes to forwards, but we have recruited so many midfielders over the years(that have been ordinary at best) and tried to make them into either forwards or backmen.
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Morgan Ben Allan 5 years 8 months ago #20

Morgan
I know not everyone sees it this way, but you need a little bit of luck in the draft. On the one hand I think we got good players in Brayshaw and Cerra, we were a bit unlucky to land picks inside the top 5 in a draft where the prevailing view was that there were no top 5 calibre forward KPPs, and no gun Western Australians inside the top 5.

I thought that a forward line with Tabs, McCarthy, Walters and a few A-Graders rotating forward would eek out enough goals if we were good enough elsewhere. When we hit the scoreboard reasonably well in wins against Essendon, Gold Coast and the Bulldogs I (and most) were heartened.

Losing Tabs, and McCarthy's drop in form killed us. Some glimpses from Cox aside, we just don't have the depth in that position to cover getting nothing from Tabs and McCarthy.
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pollyanna Ben Allan 5 years 8 months ago #21

pollyanna
There's no point banging on about a forward line if you can't get the ball inside 50. That is, across the Telstra line. Last weekend I checked the stats at the main break - the WeePoos had 3 times as many inside 50s than us. There's your problem at the moment.

What Ben Allen has to do with this I'm not sure.
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shane Ben Allan 5 years 8 months ago #22

shane
Ben Allan signed up the coach. That's what he's got to do with it.
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Corporal Agarn Ben Allan 5 years 8 months ago #23

Corporal Agarn
It's not only big forwards we need, but small as well, and we do little about recruiting them either. Ohh, Matera.

Midfielders recruited over the last few years that have spent time forward or back......

Sheridan, Sutcliffe, Langdon, Grey, Tucker, Cerra, D Pearce, Crowden, Giro, S Hill, Michie, Blakely, Weller, Crozier, Balic, Barlow, De Boer.

Now I obviously realise that players need to be help out in different positions but I don't think we've recruited enough true big or small forwards over the years.

But as has been pointed out, being a forward at Freo is bloody mammoth task. Imagine if we had have recruited Stephenson. I bet he wouldn't be the favourite for the rising star, and have kicked more goals in his first season that any Freo player this year, if he was playing for us.
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Mike Ben Allan 5 years 8 months ago #24

Mike
CA that is true Re: Stephenson, but it is as much because he wouldn't be playing with a team that is almost exclusively full of first-rounders and enjoys the luxury of a headquarters based on land owned by the Melbourne and Olympic Parks Trust. Collingwood are better than us this year, but if you look at how long it has taken them to get back to this spot, the draft picks they have been able to use and the resources that they have at their disposal their ladder position is actually pretty poor. Stephenson is a good player, and it's good to watch young blokes step up and show their ability, but Adam Cerra and Andrew Brayshaw have done just that all season long as well. Both of them would also very likely look even better still surrounded by players like Scott Pendlebury, Steele Sidebottom, Brodie Grundy, Taylor Adams and so on. They are both awesome on our team surrounded by a significant number of players who wouldn't be getting paid to play footy in a 16 team competition.

For what it is worth, my view is that our main problem has been either bad luck or just terrible selections with far too many draft picks (and especially our first selection) between 2010 and last year. Weirdly we have done far, far better with late selections and in the rookie draft. As I understand it, we changed recruiting manager before the 2010 draft, immediately after the previous bloke had held firm and selected Nat Fyfe at 20 when the pressure was on from others within the club to select Ryan Bastinac instead. I don't necessarily disagree with some of the sentiments on here regarding the head coach and others, but above all I think some serious scrutiny needs to be applied to our drafting track record.
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Raglan Matt Ben Allan 5 years 8 months ago #25

Raglan Matt
Morgan, re Walters in the midfield,
" I can see the benefit of playing him a bit further up the ground where he can get the ball and be the guy kicking into the 50. He needs a few bodies and mayhem around him, where he can use his smarts and skills to make something happen."
Lyon doesn't do bodies creating mayhem. We need a coach who does.

Re Cox
"I agree Cox has plenty of talent, but his go is to get to the right spot and have the player kick to his advantage where he can use his judgment to take a mark"
Cox is 19, he will learn, and quickly, he has already shown that.

Re leading AT the footy.
"RM, I know you’d prefer to see players leading from the square. Who would it be exactly? Even if that was the way the game is played these days (it’s the exception rather than the rule), we don’t have the cattle for it. We just don’t have the players with that x-factor of timing, instinct and speed."
All I know about that is that all day our forwards were leading away from the teammate kicking the footy, all day the Hawks (Bruest, Gunstant Puopalo, Roughy etc ) were leading AT the teammate with the footy. Hawthorn won by 10 goals, I see a pattern that you don't. I also like players leading at the footy. Cox's best games (2 I think) were when he was stationed forward and led AT the footy. On Sunday he was not and did not. I may be old fashioned and out of touch, but I am not bloody blind. It might be a good starting point in our rebuild to try something that seems to work for the more successful sides.
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rogerrocks Ben Allan 5 years 8 months ago #26

rogerrocks
If you look at WC their only pure forwards are Kennedy and Darling (and maybe Ryan). But they aren't just forwards, they are "get out of gaol free" cards when WC are having trouble getting the ball out of defence. Tabs can maybe do that for us.It would be great to have one more. How is Hugh Dixon going?
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Corporal Agarn Ben Allan 5 years 8 months ago #27

Corporal Agarn
But they have a good spread of forwards. Le Cras has kicked a heap of goals over the years, Rioli/Ryan can be damaging, Lycett is good for a few goals and young Waterman is coming a long nicely. Cripps not so keen on him but does his job as the defensive forward I think.
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blockerhall Ben Allan 5 years 8 months ago #28

blockerhall
RR raises a good point, we lack a structural forward, and this is still a key when you play finals. I actually think Cox is a very important part of Collingwood's rise and potential run at September this year.
Which brings me to Johnson. Was he injured or overlooked for the Hawks game? Thought he added a bit to our structure forward, and deserved another game before Tabs was ready. Couldn't have made things worse on Sunday. When Jones at FF is the answer the question is wrong. Not running the guy down, good on him, trying hard, but what exactly is wrong with throwing Strnadica to the wolves at this point? Everyone else has had a go.
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