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TOPIC: I Don't See It

The_Yeti I Don't See It 5 years 9 months ago #43

The_Yeti
frankmac,

just to be honest here, I was you beauting the bit about Fyfe punching Mitchell mostly but I agree he's added a lot to slime. That said, Simpson seems to be a better coach than most on here have given him credit
Egurls Suck!
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Corporal Agarn said You Beaut

Drubbing I Don't See It 5 years 9 months ago #44

Drubbing
Simpson is a decent coach, but he's also got at least one standout player in every key position. NN just gets the callers and media excited.
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Hamihill I Don't See It 5 years 9 months ago #45

Hamihill
I think your confusing joyless to winless it’s all over afl site that the games congested garbage.
Ratings down blah blah
About one game a week worth watching usually and if the eagles are getting flogged of course.
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Bizkit I Don't See It 5 years 9 months ago #46

Bizkit
When Harvey got the boot, our injury list was bigger than our available players list and of those, many were having to play through the niggles, bumps and bruises they were carrying. Earlier in the season and in the previous year with a fitter squad, we looked great and played great footy.

While Pav wanted a coach who mapped out all the intricacies and structures of the modern game, not every player wants that and nor does that make a good/bad coach. There are plenty of good coaches who impart less detailed ideas and mentalities, coaching individuals how to go about various situations rather than an entire regimented team structure that requires 22 players doing the exact right thing.

Harvey employed attacking tactics and gave players the license to hunt the footy and the man. It's a high risk, high reward strategy that allowed our young side an opportunity to beat anyone and learn a great deal but did open us up on occasion when we were severely undermanned. However almost every tactic is at peril when the side is down with injuries/poor form.

It was this attacking tactic that begun the forward pressure movement adopted by most sides with blokes like Mayne, Ballantyne, Morabito, Dutchy and co given freedom to chase hard and pressure the ball carrier.

There were also many players who shed tears for Harvs and while not able to publicly say so in interviews and go against the club's decision to stab him in the back, I've spoken to plenty who loved Harvs and his passion for the club and his players and hated to see him leave.
Nathan: When did you get balls?
Simon: I've always had balls you've just never seen them.
Nathan: That's the gayest thing I've ever heard.
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blockerhall, The_Yeti, Raglan Matt, Lazza040, Corporal Agarn said You Beaut

pollyanna I Don't See It 5 years 9 months ago #47

pollyanna
Harvey did a lot, only a few of them are ever mentioned. But that time is gone, so is Phil Smart, Rick and the Wiz. Maybe the future will bring others, but slagging off the past doesn't make the present even remotely pleasing.
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The_Yeti said You Beaut

Raglan Matt I Don't See It 5 years 9 months ago #48

Raglan Matt
Harvey coached a style that has been used by Hawthorn, Bulldogs and Richmond to win a fair swag of the last 8 flags. While I was supportive of Lyon's appointment in 2012, thinking he would take the squad further down the track Harvey had opened up, and some of the "sustained success" spruiked at the time, and enjoyed by the Hawks, would follow, I was wrong. I thought at the time his coaching tactics at the Saints were due to the limitations of the Saints list, they were in fact due to his strategic and tactical limitations.


It is time to limit the damage, and see what Hodge, Summa or C Scott could offer. And if we were able to get rid of the off-field influences that stabbed Harvey in the back, I would be doing everything I could to get him back as an assistant coach, because whatever his limitations in the lead coach role, he has a rapport with players who want to win games as opposed to "not lose" games.
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blockerhall, Drubbing said You Beaut

hypen I Don't See It 5 years 9 months ago #49

hypen
Watching a surprisingly entertaining and informative On the Couch last night where, Phil Davis, Dangerfield and Nathan Jones were the guest presenters I got the feeling we are, in part, using Lyon as a punching bag for the state of the game. The game has problems and its not isolated to Fremantle's game plan.

Having said that Lyon is one of the chief architects of the way game is being played and I doubt whether he can change. He also is an outlier in terms of defensive extremity.

Morgan makes a valid point about forward capability being a partial driver and he is correct, but the lack of draft priority for a key forward due to a defensive mindset is the cause of that.

Remember last year we were all saying West Coast had no midfield and yet with their first two picks inside 20 they took two talls, Allan and Brander. That's cause they were available and they paid overs for them knowing how hard they are to come by relative to midfield talent.

We don't prioritize attacking capability.
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goodie, Raglan Matt, R.Lyon said You Beaut

Morgan I Don't See It 5 years 9 months ago #50

Morgan
Hypen, that’s a point I’ve been inelegantly trying to make for a while. There is no doubt there are times that we don’t have people in the right place forward, or at times, no-one at all. I think this happens to us more than most other teams, but this isn’t a problem unique to Freo. My view is that we notice it more with Freo because that’s the team we watch more than any other. It’s a bit like when you decide that T-Bone Sheridan can’t kick. You notice every shank, and it confirms what you already know. What you don’t realise is that he’s only marginally worse (if that) than most other players who you aren’t focusing on. What we are seeing is bad version of what modern footy looks like, because we are a bad team.

The question of what causes our forward line woes is where I tend to diverge from most on Dockerland. A lot of people blame Lyon exclusively. I consider a fair amount of blame needs to sit on his shoulders – he’s the coach after all - but what I see is that when we can’t win the ball around the rest of the field we get all of our players back, and we struggle to get the balance right going forward. I would be more inclined to blame Lyon alone if that problem didn’t also present itself with every other team in the competition.

The difference between the good teams and the bad teams is that good teams win the ball. If you’re winning in the middle, you already have your guys forward. If you don’t often get camped in your defensive backline, then balance going forward becomes less of an issue.

Further, if good teams don’t win the ball in the first instance, when they do force a turnover (something good teams also do) their forwards are in the right spot to affect the contest – they don’t get sucked too far into the backline. Where the forwards are out of position, the rest of the good team manages to maintain possession for long enough to allow their forwards to get to the right spot; rather than do what bad teams like us do, and turn it right back over rushing the kick to the wrong contest (in our case Ballas/Matera forward).

Getting that connection right is really hard, and requires 18 people to have the stamina, nous and experience with each other to play in sequence. Expecting that with a team that has turned over half its list is unrealistic.

It’s Lyon’s job to get his players on the same page, but when you’ve talls like Cox and Apeness playing less than a few games together as a forward pairing, that’s not going to happen overnight. I thought there were some good signs when we finally got Tabs getting to the right spots.

A new coach would get the benefit of time to get this right. Lyon doesn’t because we’ve seen this before with him at the helm of Freo. But that doesn’t necessarily follow that it’s (all) his fault.
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Raglan Matt I Don't See It 5 years 9 months ago #51

Raglan Matt
Morgan, I know this is picking 1 statement in isolation, but.
but what I see is that when we can’t win the ball around the rest of the field we get all of our players back, and we struggle to get the balance right going forward.

We have had games where we have smashed the opposition in the clearances, and been beaten, earlier in the year and last year we were getting plenty of inside 50's but to a vacant or undersized (because Balla's, Walters & the rest of the mosquito fleet could get forward from the backline but the big fellas weren't fast enough) forward line which saw it come straight back out. Lyon has not seriously tried other options in the season proper, and has not tried other options against sides he considers better than Freo, for more than a quarter of a game. When his strategy does work, we build a lead by half time, then he goes back to all behind the ball to protect the lead because the players are stuffed from the excessive sprinting they have to do.
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hypen I Don't See It 5 years 9 months ago #52

hypen
Raglan, I think we beat up Richmond pretty badly around the ball.
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Raglan Matt I Don't See It 5 years 9 months ago #53

Raglan Matt
That's what I said Hypen, smashed them in the clearances, and got beaten. (well I guess got smashed by them would have been a better choice of adjective.)
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hypen said You Beaut

Bizkit I Don't See It 5 years 9 months ago #54

Bizkit
I watch plenty of other games Morgan as I'm sure my fellow DuFFLers can attest to and it's easy to see the congestion and lack of forward structure is very much a Freo problem.

While other sides do have occasions where they are held up at half back or push extra numbers behind the footy, it is in no way proportional to how often we go to the tactic and very rarely to our extreme. I believe it's been going on far too long not to be an RL instruction as nothing happens across a game like on the weekend to rectify it meaning RL endorses it or is hopeless as a coach to do anything about it.

I accept losing the midfield battle will result in players pushing back more but we have had the best centre combination of all time in there winning the footy for us and yet it has made no difference to the way we play. We also have some of the best distributors in the game at half back who should never have a problem finding a target going forward (Wilson, Ryan, S Hill and even Cerra) yet we still struggle to move the footy forward to our advantage.

There's no way we should be this poor at getting the ball out of the back half and with RL so bereft of ideas to rectify that, he can't remain in the job any longer.
Nathan: When did you get balls?
Simon: I've always had balls you've just never seen them.
Nathan: That's the gayest thing I've ever heard.
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DazzElle, Raglan Matt said You Beaut

Morgan I Don't See It 5 years 9 months ago #55

Morgan
But we weren't poor at moving the ball from halfback at the start of the season. In fact, most considered our improvement in that area was cause for optimism. That improvement has gradually been eroded as the season has gone on, I think in part because of personnel we have lost, in part because other teams have shut it down, and in part because of a drop in form of some of our defenders (Wilson and Ryan were dynamite at the start of the season, but they don't quite seem as effective at the moment).

I don't doubt you watch a lot of games, but there is a difference in watching a game on TV and in person. Take Sunday's game between West Coast and GWS. On a number of occasions the commentators mentioned GWS players had to hold the ball as there was no-one to kick it to. But I didn't see it. I also didn't see the other times where GWS players were out of position but it wasn't mentioned by the commentators. Even if I did see it somehow, I wouldn't file it away as memorable because I don't have many views about GWS's positioning or otherwise.

And yet at a Freo game in person I see every single instance, and it gets filed away. I have no idea if the half a dozen times a game we literally have no-one in our forward line when pressing forward is above or below the AFL average. I kept a close eye on it during the Dreamtime game between Richmond and Essendon because I was there, it was a boring game and I didn't care who won. And what I saw was that both teams had at least as many occasions of empty forward lines in that match. Richmond just broke better into their forward space.
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rogerrocks I Don't See It 5 years 9 months ago #56

rogerrocks
There is a lot to be said for being confident that your team will win the ball. The hardest thing to get used to since the heady days of 2012 - 2015 is that when the ball is in dispute I no longer have confidence that we will come out with the ball. Indeed mostly I find myself disappointed when the opposition come out with the ball.

So until we get back to winning the contested ball, our players would be mugs to stay forward of the ball where they will be of absolutely no use as the ball goes down for a goal to the opposition. And I suppose Ross is to blame for us not winning the contested ball. And the drought in NSW, I'm sure he caused that too.
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