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TOPIC: Backs v Forwards

Morgan Backs v Forwards 5 years 11 months ago #1

Morgan
There’s been a bit of back-and-forward on other posts about how much blame for our forward line woes should reside with Lyon’s tactics, and how much resides with the quality of our forwards (and therefore indirectly the list managers). I’m generally in the ‘coaches get too much credit/blame’ camp, although I note that camp doesn’t really exist on this board because even if the midfield or backline is smashing the opposition that’s never attributed to Lyon.

One of my favourite parts of footy training was Backs v Forwards, mostly because it most resembled a game of footy. It was usually a good indicator of who in your team could really play, and it was always fun to see the best defenders/forward on your team go head-to-head for bragging rights. Which got me to thinking: how would our forwards go against our backmen in a game, and who as a midfield might you direct your kicks to?

I know that teams nominally have 6 forwards and backs in the line-up and at the bounce (cue the howls about no-one being in our forward line), but most teams usually include a midfielder in that team sheet that doesn’t really go in the 50m much. For example, Neale and Hannebury were named on flanks on the weekend. So let’s say you’ve got 5 Freo forwards and backs going head to head. How would the forwards fare?

Based on the team named last weekend, I reckon the match-ups would look something like this (assuming the defence gets to move positions based on who Freo names in the forward line). I’ve bolded who I think would win the match-up:

Match-ups

Cox v A Pearce

There’s a good chance Pearce absolutely towels up Cox one-one-one. He’s got him easily covered for height, pace and possibly skill. Cox’s best bet would be to read the ball better in a pack situation, but that’s a long-shot. I reckon at best Cox kicks a goal from a pack mark or free kick, but is largely ineffective otherwise.

McCarthy v Hamling

I also reckon McCarthy gets towelled up by Hamling, at least in the 50m. I’d love to see these guys on a lead, but I reckon Hamling would mostly have him covered unless the kick in was absolutely perfect. Anything in the air and CamMac is cooked. Best bet would be for McCarthy to get up the ground.

Walters v Banfield

Here’s a chance for goals. The defensive coach would like put their best stopper on Walters, which this season has been Banfield. Banfield has done a good job on some elite half-forwards, but I’d expect Walters to have the smarts and skill be able to make something happen. I’m not sure how this would happen – maybe Walters takes Banfield into traffic and works out, or reads a crumb better – but I reckon you could put Sonny down for a couple.

Ballantyne v Ryan

This would be a good match-up, and Ballas would give his all; but I think Ryan would shade him. Ryan is certainly better in the air, and I think probably has him for pace too these days. Ballas’ best bet is to hit the pack for a roving goal, but given the likely areal dominance of the defenders, I can’t see this happening too often. More likely the ball will be hurriedly kicked into the 50m, and Ryan will pick it off.

Matera v Wilson

I reckon a defensive coach would put Wilson on Matera. Wilson probably has him covered in the air and for pace, and would get a lot of easy possessions going the other way. Matera could craft a goal from a random event, but the defensive coaches would feel pretty comfortable about this match-up.

Tactics

Now imagine you’re the forward coach: How would you instruct your forwards to position themselves knowing that four of your five forwards would likely get beaten one-on-one?

My view would be that your best bet to craft a goal involves Walters, so I’d plonk him forward and make Banfield sweat. I’m not sure Walters from the square on a the lead is your best bet – you need another variable in the mix – so I’d play Cox close to goal and hope that when needed he can make a contest. I’d have CamMac, Ballas and Matera pushing up the ground a bit, but charging towards goal.

Everyone likes to blame the coach for not having a system that leads to goals, but the old saying ‘you can’t make chicken salad out of chicken [feathers]’ rings true to me; and with the tools at his disposal, I’m not sure how you craft goals from the forwards at Freo’s disposal.

Perhaps there are posters out there smarter than me who could turn those players into goals, but I just can't see it, even against Freo’s defence - which shapes to be very good in a few years, but is still learning to play together. I can see why people suggest playing Sandi and Fyfe forward, and even throwing rookies from Peel into the mix, because to me there’s no obvious path to a high score other than running in waves from the midfield with the forwards we have.
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goodie, rogerrocks, snoop, Tropical, Helenv said You Beaut

KingKepler Backs v Forwards 5 years 11 months ago #2

KingKepler
If the ball is being delivered quickly with skill to a forward leading into space even the best defenders can’t stop a mark and shot at goal. I reckon the forwards we have are good enough to complete this part of a play if they have the opportunity.

This requires forwards to be leading at the ball and for there to be low congestion in the forward fifty. It also requires defenders to be held accountable by actually needing to defend a forward and not just sit back and take intercept marks.

This perpetual belief that we have to win every contest and clearance around the ground to win the game is just wrong. We can lose the clearances and stoppages overall but still win the game if our method going forward is good enough.

This has been demonstrated by the teams that are flogging is even though we are racking up more clearances.
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Suker said You Beaut

Raglan Matt Backs v Forwards 5 years 11 months ago #3

Raglan Matt
Morgan, our problems forward start from the fact that McCarthy is not being allowed to play his natural game. Which is leading at the footy. He is always being played up the ground and being left to lead towards goals. Defenders love a forward leading with the flight of the ball (unless it is locket or B Hall or J Brown and the latter is the only one who did it out of those 3, to his eventual cost). Crumbers hate it, because the ball if coming to ground could go anywhere, and the fella kicking it hates it because he has to put the ball on a sixpence.

Get McCarthy leading from the square against Hamling, and you will bring Ballas, and Matera into the mix, and open things up for Cox to drop into the 10-20 meters out possie for the long bomb. However I would have Fyfe down there instead of Walters, for a third marking option. Name one defender in the comp, let alone Freo who would relish that contest.
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expat, Suker said You Beaut

The_Yeti Backs v Forwards 5 years 11 months ago #4

The_Yeti
Ok Morgan, now lets add a dose of reality here.

Take your back six that you've listed and then 5 of your forwards, you know like Roly does and see how that changes the equation.

A slight advantage to the defenders becomes almost an insurmountable advantage and here you are saying the coach doesn't really change things much.

If that were even partially true, why would we pay him 1.2 million a year? For smarmy press conferences? I don't think so.

You and Jezza spend a lot of time trying to say the coach doesn't really change things but always with the one conclusion. I'd really like to know why both of you are so determined not to have the coaches held to proper scrutiny.
Egurls Suck!
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Bizkit, DazzElle, Rhufus said You Beaut

The_Yeti Backs v Forwards 5 years 11 months ago #5

The_Yeti
When you've explained how they are supposed to operate when outmanned, then you can explain how they can function when its either Ballas or Matera as the sole Freo player in the forward 50 and the ball gets bombed in high and slow.

Thats all down to coaching.

Either its a function of Roly's game plan or its his long term failure to correct.

As is the undermanned forward line. Its either part of the plan or a failure by him to correct.

The facts don't support your argument that the coach doesn't do much unless you are talking about our coach not doing much to correct long term issues. You might have a point there.
Egurls Suck!
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DazzElle said You Beaut

Jezza Backs v Forwards 5 years 11 months ago #6

Jezza
Yeti, there’s still only one winner every premiership year. The other 17 coaches failed. If that’s too simplistic we’ll maybe it is. Strategies, tactics only play a small part. The players and what’s in between their ears, carry out those tactics. Clearly I don’t like to complicate things and in my early days, I seemed to get results. So if Cammac was our only genuine forward, he’s getting the best defender. No chance he’ll be allowed to lead at his leisure.
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The_Yeti Backs v Forwards 5 years 11 months ago #7

The_Yeti
So tell me, Jezza, why do we pay him 1.2 million a year of he does so little?

Until you can justify that, all of the other stuff that is used to divert attention from his failures just becomes more noise
Egurls Suck!
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hypen Backs v Forwards 5 years 11 months ago #8

hypen
So Morgan if the ball is past our forward 50 I am telling my forwards to play in lines. First two go no deeper than centre circle last line no deeper than edge of the centre square. And then I am telling them to break forward to goal when the ball gets to the wing - irrespective of who has the ball. Take a chance.

This is our real issue, scoring out of defence we don't roll the dice enough. Shame we win our fair share of contests.
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Jezza Backs v Forwards 5 years 11 months ago #9

Jezza
$1.2M is small fish compared to what the AFL has spent to get GWS a flag in 5 years. Not to mention the talent that’s on display. How’s Leon’s game plan coming together. Their premiership window is shut, over. What happens to Cameron now. Like I said, why are coaches shown the door too easily. I say give Roly till 2020, unless you’ve got an ideal coach in mind.
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Morgan Backs v Forwards 5 years 11 months ago #10

Morgan
KK, I'm not sure who in our team can beat their man on a lead.

RM, CamMac has never been a leading player. That's not to say he doesn't lead, but at GWS he was a third or fourth option running around making stuff happen. He didn't have the tank for that last year, and after a strong start has gone missing the last few weeks as a primary option. I reckon he'd be ok again in a lessor role, but that's not the cards he's been dealt.

Yeti, it was a thought exercise to try and devise an effective forward strategy with the tools at Lyon's disposal. You've spend heaps of time saying what you consider Lyon is doing wrong - here's a chance to say how you'd deploy the team, using Freo defenders for staging. Instead you've just said what Lyon is going wrong again. Put yourself in Lyon's shoes: you don't get $1.2 million and you're not allowed to sexually harass women, but you can organise a forward line. What would you do. Add a6th if you like (maybe Cerra and Blakely/Duman in defence). Where is our best advantage and how would you exploit it.

At the moment you sound a but like Tony Abbott - very insistent everyone else is wrecking the joint, but not prepared to provide an alternative. Astor coaches salary, on your logic I don't understand why we wouldn't just pay Clarkson $5million a year and roll out a WAFL team?

Hypen, I tend to agree, but I think that's basically what the plan seems like. Where it seems to get screwed up is where we lose people getting too far up the ground, and we are too conservative running forward (or too slow or our starting position is too deep).
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Jebediah55, rogerrocks, Rhufus said You Beaut

Noddy Backs v Forwards 5 years 11 months ago #11

Noddy
The merry go-round continues.

Cam Mac is a 2nd, being generous or 3rd tall in any good side. We wont kick any big scores until we get at least one or two big mobile guys in the fwd line to help him out.

I’ll stand to be corrected but name me one team that is doing well with one mid sized forward as their primary go to target?
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The_Yeti, goodie said You Beaut

The_Yeti Backs v Forwards 5 years 11 months ago #12

The_Yeti
As a thought exercise, it was a failure as you've just done what Lyon refuses to do, you've got 6 players.

As for McCarthy not being a leading player, that is actually where he is good. He's no good being used a tall forward because he's not 199 cm tall. He's a mobile forward and they are supposed to lead to the player with ball.

Of course, that assumes you actually allow him to stay forward enough to be able to lead at the player with the ball but thats another story isn't it.

With the forward players you listed, Cox stays at home...deep. McCarthy and Matera roam across the pockets and lead out to the half forward. Walter and Ballatyne crumb.

But as I'm not Roly, I would use those six players as my forward line. I would be having Fyfe, Sandi and Mundy rotating through the forward line to ad a SECOND marking tall. Thats something Lyon refuses to do...have a second tall.

Then I'd spend a lot of time working with my mids to look and honour leads and kick forward of a leading player instead of hoofing it high and slow....another thing Roly won't ever do.

Neither you or Jezza, with all your gyrations around the point, still haven't justified why Roly gets paid 1.2 million when you both claim the game plan, tactics, team disposition etc don't really amount to anything important, yet he's the bloke going to lead us to the promised land.

I just wish you would make up your minds and show a little consistency
Egurls Suck!
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KingKepler Backs v Forwards 5 years 11 months ago #13

KingKepler
I agree Morgan - I am not sure who in our team can beat their opponent on a lead because we only see it happen about once per game where:

a) we have a forward leading at the ball to begin with
b) the midfield hit the target without defenders intercepting it due to fast movement and precise kicking

We move the ball up the ground by kicking to wings and forcing stoppages or throw ins and then by the time we get an opportunity to kick it into the fifty it is picked off by the opposition and they score on the rebound.

The other situation is we win the footy somewhere in the middle of the ground and our midfielders have no targets leading at the footy so they either hold up play, kick it to the wing or bomb it up in the air. Sometimes kick it or hand ball it sideways or backwards and turn it over.

Sometimes we score by kicking it to players leading towards goal but it seems to be a fairly unreliable way of kicking goals. Sometimes we win by trying to bomb it in and lock it in the fifty but once again this is proving to be a lot of effort for little reward. Against poor opposition this tactic of dominating in the middle and forcing it forward seems to work but it will never work reliably against good sides.

I really find it flabbergasting that some people think that what we are doing currently is the best way to kick a winning score.
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The_Yeti, Corporal Agarn said You Beaut

rogerrocks Backs v Forwards 5 years 11 months ago #14

rogerrocks
Thanks Morgan for a seriously good analysis. It certainly highlights what Ross has to work with. Right now I reckon we have to rely on our midfield taking marks 40m from goal and slotting them. Or the midfield manage to deliver the ball to the advantage of our forwards with some very good kicking. Because, as you say, one on one with an average kick coming in, they are screwed.
The trouble is that when you have serious deficiencies a good AFL coach will exploit them. And our lack of winning forwards is a serious deficiency. If Tabs was playing, you'd just try and isolate him with a defender, knowing he'd win most contested marking contests. But if he's your only option, he gets double teamed and shepherded out while someone takes the intercept mark. But of course that would leave McCarthy in a better position.
So its back to our midfield until our forwards improve. But its worth remembering that big guys take longer to be good, but can stay good for a long time. And they don't have to be fast. The Anvil was possibly the slowest player I every saw, but after he left Freo he won a premiership with Collingwood.
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