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TOPIC: Hypothetical Coach Trade

The_Yeti Hypothetical Coach Trade 6 years 3 weeks ago #99

The_Yeti
I'm assuming, judging by some of the posts on here over the years, that we should simply do without a coach.

The coach isn't responsible for player's skills or selecting them. He isn't responsible for our game plan and he certainly isn't responsible for not playing forwards forward of the ball. I see Tabs still got criticised on Saturday in here for playing too high up the field so clearly thats Tabs at fault not the coach for playing him there. He's not responsible for drafting as we blame Bond, Chris Bond for that.

So it seems that his only role is doing smarmy pressers and treating us like idiots.

Since he's not actually responsible for anything, lets save 1.2 million a year and pay that to a couple of blokes who are actually responsible for something.

I'll bet Bloody Harvey must be feeling a bit put out about now since he was blamed for us failing in all those areas by the same people who now claim that these things are not Roly's responsibility. The double standards are breathtaking....and predictable.
Egurls Suck!
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Raglan Matt, KingKepler, purplepower, Burton said You Beaut

Flag_2005 Hypothetical Coach Trade 6 years 3 weeks ago #100

Flag_2005
Except that Harvey wasn’t blamed for failing in the areas in which you think Ross is failing.

How does Freo’s goal kicking compare to other teams? All of this stuff is relative. For example, after comfortably dispatching of GC on the weekend someone lamented (with a nod in Ross’ direction) the number of Freo turnovers. Well, check out the turnovers in the other games this weekend - the numbers are remarkably similar.
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hypen Hypothetical Coach Trade 6 years 3 weeks ago #101

hypen
It is that in Lyon's tenure we have been known for effort over skill and since Clakson's tenure the Hawks have been known for their skill. Over many many seasons the above is true. Your skills can be improved over time and deficiencies can be mitigated, with the right type of coaching.

Honestly, don't think it's priority number 1 for Lyon. Maybe not even 2 or 3.

Our best 18 is quite skilled, we'd be a different football team under Clarkson. I guess most teams would though.
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The_Yeti, shane, Rhufus said You Beaut

The_Yeti Hypothetical Coach Trade 6 years 3 weeks ago #102

The_Yeti
Flag_2005, thats was me and the turnovers in our game were generally higher than other teams and our game was played in very good conditions. ie not wet, not too hot, gentle breezes, football conditions would not get much better.

Of the weekends winners:
Pies 63 turnovers
Port 60
Demons 63
Freo 70 (GCS 76)
Swans 64
Adelaide 72
Tigers 69
Doggies 64
Slime 67

As I said on Saturday, until that point we had the worst turnover stat. In the end only Adelaide was worse and Adelaide had no more excuse than we did as we were both playing a weaker opponent. Adelaide at least kicked 15.14 where we kicked 13.18 in perfect conditions. I didn't watch the Adelaide St Kilda game (who would?) all that closely but I did watch ours. Most of our turnovers came from missed kicks under little or no pressure. We also threw away numerous forward 50 entries by missing simple kicks to a team mate, a factor long lamented on Dockerland over some years.

All I can see on here is mindless, repetitive nonsense that absolves the coach from any responsibility. It's not his fault we miss kicks, handballs. etc. Its not his fault that marks get dropped. Its not his fault we miss easy kicks in front of goal. It seems he has no responsibility for the way we play the game yet somehow he's the best coach we ever had.

As for Harvey being different thats also nonsense. Harvey was crificised heavily for a couple of things including our poor skills, missing targets by hand and foot and worst of all he had a gameplan that allowed other teams to score big against us, pretty much like Roly's gameplan that saw 100+ point losses over the last few seasons but of course, they weren't Roly's fault.

Should we just keep saying Bloody Harvey then instead of Bloody Roly?
Egurls Suck!
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Morgan Hypothetical Coach Trade 6 years 3 weeks ago #103

Morgan
I think what people like myself are saying yeti is that there are a dozen coaches, and I'm guessing the skills part doesn't sit with Lyon.

Lyon is ultimately responsible for the game plan, but even components of that would sit with the line coaches. I'm not sure Lyon is setting all the centre square strategies or forward leading patterns, but I'm guess he would have oversight as to how it all fits together.

I'm sure guys like Scott or Kirk were very useful when they were here. If they didn't have a role to play how could they be? The coach gets the big bucks and ultimately the buck stops with him. That doesn't mean everything that goes right is his fault, or that everything that goes wrong is either.
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Quasimodo Hypothetical Coach Trade 6 years 3 weeks ago #104

Quasimodo
Yeti the head coach is ultimately responsible. My biggest concern is forward structure and in particular key forwards playing too high. If you are Franklin you can get away with it. Tabs can’t. His field kicking is not good enough and he hasn’t got a long enough kick to trouble outside 50. Whether it’s Lyons fault or his he is not playing to his strengths which are to lead out of the goal square and take marks in range or get the ball to ground to our smalls advantage.

In fairness to Tabs he isn’t an orphan as often we win the ball and then have nothing up forward , this is Lyons fault as he sets the game plan which is to press back but I think it is overdone and we need at least 2 or 3 players in front of the ball at all times so we can better exploit turnovers.
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Flag_2005 Hypothetical Coach Trade 6 years 3 weeks ago #105

Flag_2005
So Yeti in your comparison from the weekend the reigning premiers had one less turnover than Freo and the 2017 grand finalists had two more than Freo.

I’m not sure the turnovers say anything at all about Freo or Ross Lyon (or Mark Harvey for that matter).
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The_Yeti Hypothetical Coach Trade 6 years 3 weeks ago #106

The_Yeti
Morgan,

thanks for quoting me back as an answer. I'm not sure what that is answering but there ya go, I'm also not sure what Roly actually takes responsibility for.

As for line coaches taking partial responsibility for the game plan just no. No organisation will run with the head of an area being in overall charge except for the bits his subordinates actually do. The assistant coaches are just that, assistants. They carry out the bit that Roly tells them to do to make HIS game plan operate. If its actually his assistants doing the 'centre square strategies' then lets just have assistants.

The Ass coaches are there to train up the players in their area to make Roly's plans work. Roly is responsible 100% for that plan. 100%. All I can see is more blame shifting. Its not the coach, its the assistants. After 5 years, if we still have the same deficiencies that we definitely have, it is certainly 100% down to the bloke who is running things and making all the decisions.

I know when i'm running things, the people I delegate tasks to are doing it the way I want it done and if they are not doing that then I'm bringing them into line until they are. If things are not done right, then I'm the 'only' one in the frame. Its either bad management or bad coaching but either way, the guy in the chair carries the responsibility. Lyon isn't just ultimately responsible for the way the team is coached and the way the team goes about the job, he is totally responsible. If his line coaches aren't doing their jobs then why isn't he responsible for addressing that?

The simple fact is he is responsible. Just him
Egurls Suck!
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Raglan Matt, Burton said You Beaut

Morgan Hypothetical Coach Trade 6 years 3 weeks ago #107

Morgan
Do Micromangers Anonymous have meetings, or can they never agree on a venue?
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hypen said You Beaut

The_Yeti Hypothetical Coach Trade 6 years 3 weeks ago #108

The_Yeti
Flag,

The turnovers say a lot. So do the poor accuracy on goal. So does the team selection. So does the team structure. So do the repeated missed targets due to skill errors. They all add up to a coherent picture. Just taking one in isolation and ignoring everything will give you plenty of opportunities to muddy the picture but the facts will make it clearer.

We had perfect footy conditions and had more turnovers than almost every other team. We had poorer goal accuracy than almost every other team, certainly worse than the team that had more turnovers and I can't comment on the conditions in that game that could have led to those turnovers but Adelaide certainly kicked noticeably straighter than we did. We cannot blame the conditions as they were perfect. The only thing we can blame is our skills
Egurls Suck!
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Raglan Matt Hypothetical Coach Trade 6 years 3 weeks ago #109

Raglan Matt
Flag, if we have the same amount (on average) of turnovers and missed shots for goal as all the other teams in the comp, it stands to reason, that if our coaching panel work on those 2 areas and improve them by 10%, we should be winning a lot more games than we lose. So get the coaches coaching, not working out complicate, unworkable game plans, or getting our players fit enough to run 2 marathons a day. Get them kicking the ball to a teammate and kick goals not points or out of bounds. Do this by spending time improving their kicking skills. Then you will have earnt your multi million dollars that we spend on you.

So yes it is the coaching panels responsibility whichever way you look at it.
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The_Yeti Hypothetical Coach Trade 6 years 3 weeks ago #110

The_Yeti
Micro managers? Cheap shot, Morgan.

Accepting responsibility isn't micromanaging. I don't need to micro manage anyway. I tell them how I want it done and what I want as a product and let them make sure I get it.

If I don't get what I asked for then I make sure that they are giving me what I want. Thats managing.

Thats also Roly's job. If you want to weasle your way around things and say its the Ass Coaches who should be responsible, then fine lets save 1.2 million and have Ass Coaches not a smarmy git who isn't responsible for doing a job he's getting paid to do
Egurls Suck!
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purplepower, Burton said You Beaut

Noddy Hypothetical Coach Trade 6 years 3 weeks ago #111

Noddy
The merry go round was good ride as a kid.
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Stacksonthemill Hypothetical Coach Trade 6 years 3 weeks ago #112

Stacksonthemill
I'm glad we didn't lose!
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goodie said You Beaut