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TOPIC: Hope & Despair

Noddy Hope & Despair 6 years 1 month ago #57

Noddy
The overall lack of skills argument about the team is overblown.

Most AFL players are skilful. On the weekend it was Neale, Fyfe and Hill who made the most critical errors and I’d suggest that was because what was going on around them was at times chaotic and affected their confidence.
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rogerrocks said You Beaut

The_Yeti Hope & Despair 6 years 1 month ago #58

The_Yeti
Well that settles it then I guess.

The fact that we can't hit targets by hand and foot simply means nothing then.

I'm really pleased that so many here think that we have no problems to address. I have to think then that those who insist our skill errors are overblown are happy with us losing 33 games out of our last 45.

Some of us however are less easily pleased and I'm one of them
Egurls Suck!
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Morgan Hope & Despair 6 years 1 month ago #59

Morgan
Our forward entries sucked, but I'm curious what people thought of our transition from defence. I thought we looked a lot better moving the ball - right up until the point we got 80m from our attacking goal. Still, there seems like the green shoots of improvement on that aspect of the game I thought was most lacking last year, where we repeatedly got bogged down in our own half.

Personally I'd chalk up the improvement to personnel (Wilson helps a lot in that regard, and A Pearce, Johnno and Ryan are confident with the ball in hand).
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jimb2, Red Rooster said You Beaut

The_Yeti Hope & Despair 6 years 1 month ago #60

The_Yeti
We break across the half forward line because we don't have leading targets and we miss the players we do have forward.

Go to training and watch what we train for....we kick long towards the goal square rather than hit leading targets. If we don't get free behind the play then its much harder to get goals
Egurls Suck!
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Suker Hope & Despair 6 years 1 month ago #61

Suker
Yep, granted, our skills have been awful mostly, but all I am saying that at the heart of it our group should not be so less skilled than other teams. Yes, some teams have a higher ratio of skill...but what i am getting at is that our group, if fully understanding and committed to a style of play, will as a consequence play with more confidence and the skills will come out more. Yes the Hawks were extraordinary, but surely we can see that their attitude and daring indicated a buy-in to the whole plan...which was probably a lot simpler than we know.
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Suker Hope & Despair 6 years 1 month ago #62

Suker
And just on our movement going forward, a lot of the time there did not appear to be lot of movement up front. A lack of space due to excellent running back by PA to limit our options played a part. We need to be running for each other more, as we do when we do play well. Some leadership up forward was lacking...encouraging players to keep moving, making dummy leads, creating some space, etc Midfield grunt was lacking, there should be more blocking and subtle shepherding in the mids to prevent such quick and decisive running back from PA.
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Raglan Matt Hope & Despair 6 years 1 month ago #63

Raglan Matt
Yeti, if we had a game plan that involved players leading AT the player with the ball ( I know, it's a bloody radical idea and could be hard to grasp at first) then most of our players would be hitting their targets, and we would have less "f%&$# I don't want it here you have it " handpasses. Watch this week and see how many times a player leads at the teammate kicking to him. Of course that involves having players stay in position well ahead of the play, and that's where common footy sense and RoLy's game plan diverge.
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Rhufus said You Beaut

The_Yeti Hope & Despair 6 years 1 month ago #64

The_Yeti
Again I disagree, Suker.

If you look at what you posted, you state 'if fully understanding and committed to a style of play". Are you suggesting the playing group isn't committed or understanding? If so, there is a disconnect between the players and coaches.

We also do not work on skills like other clubs do. Making a big deal out of '20 minutes' of skills coaching might be a bit of a giveaway when others teams including Hawthorn make skills the primary focus of their training.

I don't care how understanding and committed you are, if you can't get the ball to a team mate downfield then you can expect your opponents to get it to theirs as it goes back past you. Its not that hard to work out.

Even Olympic athletes train their basics skills over and over and over. Its not just fitness that gets you to a medal, its your skills. What you don't practice, you lose. Players that we know have ability to hits targets are now missing with regularity. Watch Fyfe, Neale, HillB, Mundy etc all miss passes under no pressure. There is a reason for that and that reason just isn't they don't need to train skills.

Roly, eventually is going to have to admit to himself he's got it wrong and change or his replacement will do that.

we can keep going over this each and every year and the Roly supporters will continue to dismiss our poor skills as not important or not the reason we lose so many games or whatever the excuse will be next week but the facts won't change.

We are one dimensional, limited and easy to coach against. Even Cameron could get through our press when GWS were easybeats but they never had the skills to maintain it. They do now and Cameron isn't a genius coach. Of course, he didn't invents the tactics, he just copied Hawthorn. We tried that but didn't have the skills to make it work, so now we are copying what he thinks Richmond did last year. Thats not working so well either.
Egurls Suck!
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The_Yeti Hope & Despair 6 years 1 month ago #65

The_Yeti
Read my earlier posts, RM. I said exactly that.

i. Skills
ii. Forward line (leading into space)

Thats enough to work on for now. Theres more but lets start there, you know just like what successful teams do.

Being a supporter shouldn't involve blindly agreeing with everything coming out of Dooker Central. If it clearly isn't working and 33 losses in 45 games is a pretty fair indicator things are not working, then having the temerity to question why is a fair response from any supporter.

I gave up blind faith years ago. Now when things don't work, I can see them not working. I just wish Dooker Central could.
Egurls Suck!
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DazzElle, purplepower, Wizard33 said You Beaut

Suker Hope & Despair 6 years 1 month ago #66

Suker
I agree, and yes, we do not look committed to the "game plan". We look a little confused and unsure. How can they execute properly if not fully understanding and committed to game plan. And yes, it appears the coaching and training are not getting us to a high level. I have not seen them train so I accept that not enough is done for skills. But, are they running and disposing under pressure? Are they being forced to kick or turn on their wrong side? Not sure what other clubs are doing...but simplifying things may be the key...
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Raglan Matt Hope & Despair 6 years 1 month ago #67

Raglan Matt
Just reinforcing the message Yeti, but I do believe that one thing would make a huge difference to our scoring rate. And I also believe our players are too buggered (which comes from having to do continuous 200 meter sprints for 20 minutes at a time) to execute their skills. If they are fit enough to play AFL, which they are or should be , it gets back to a very suspect game plan. If they wont change that nothing will change.
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Raglan Matt Hope & Despair 6 years 1 month ago #68

Raglan Matt
Just adding and reinforcing again, Yeti, we did not really try to copy Hawthorns game plan. They do not send all their forwards to the backline, and never did, even in their bad years. They have confidence in the players down the ground getting the ball and delivering it to the next line.

Lyon's game plan seems to me to be the supreme extension of the Gerard Neesham game plan of outnumbering your opponents when you get the ball to ensure the player in possession has time and space to use it effectively. Neesham however relied on a 2 on 1/ 3 on 2/ or max 4 on 3 outnumbering, not a 19 on 18. His teams always had players ahead of the ball to receive it. I would love to see him coaching this group as I do believe they have the skills to execute, given a sensible plan of attack.
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Rhufus said You Beaut

Blue1red1 Hope & Despair 6 years 1 month ago #69

Blue1red1
If we were winning it in the centre and delivering it properly to our HF / FF;s would we really need to be discussing the transition footy from Half back and our skills?? Just an observation, but I think we are missing the point of why the ball is in our back half line in the first place and where we need to be focusing our skills training and game strategy. It is not that hard. Brett Kirk did a great job with our mids and I would suggest we should be looking at what is going on with our mids coaching wise and this is where we could simply start our improvement.

Other wise, we might as well just start the whole team in our back line and have them running from full back / Half back as the ball gets bounced towards our forward line. It would save them the time and effort running there in the first place from the forward line.
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DocDocker, Stacksonthemill, Suker said You Beaut

Tropical Hope & Despair 6 years 1 month ago #70

Tropical
All this game plan talk has got me thinking.
It's probably not one game plan but 3 separate systems. Footy has 3 phases:
I) we've got the ball
II) they've got the ball
III) no one's got the ball yet

So we've got a system for using the ball, a system for getting it back and a system at the contest.

Listening to RoLy's presser, he thought we failed in phase II - when Port had the ball they moved it cleanly and quickly and we couldn't get it back off them. Watching the game, that was exactly what I saw too.

I think our phase II system is the one built on manic effort but it also requires good coordination from every player to set the zone so you don't leave any holes for the opponent to work their way through. We can't expect that system to work perfectly with so many new players (not just rookies but new acquisitions) so it'll be a while before we shut teams down like we did with the last cohort of players. However that worked with players we now decry as inadequate so I have hope we'll get that going. In fact the first 10 minutes of round one gave me confidence that it's not far off.

I'd add that we looked lost at the contest though. Without Fyfe dominating, we lost the clearances and we lost too many one on ones. It's worth considering that maybe our individual players are not as good as we'd like compared to the top sides right now.

I also have no idea what the plan is for phase I.
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