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TOPIC: Moneyball

Derby12 Moneyball 6 years 6 months ago #43

Derby12
without really buying into either side of this debate, ROTV your figures show (over 10 years) AFL down 2500 per game on average with the expansion sides and the Darwin games etc, and us down over 5000 for the same period without any equivalent reasons. I would have thought that was pretty damning ...
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RideoftheVagaries Moneyball 6 years 6 months ago #44

RideoftheVagaries
A few statistical considerations there D12.

Firstly the AFL averages will have less highs and lows (variation) than an individual teams averages, as they are buffered by the size of the demographic they are drawn from (I.e. all teams, grounds etc).

Further to that the AFL averages are also not sensitive to ladder position as high ladder and low ladder teams cancel each other out to a large degree.

Also the 2007 start point is only there because Bizkit plucked it out. If someone wanted to have a different conclusion, we could go back to 2002 and using that same isolated comparison, we could argue the AFL averages only increased 2k odd, while Freo has gone up by 6k+. Trends and the increases/decreases are more reliable and valid for our purposes.


Just to clarify, this discussion is all about whether the figures support the theory that the game style under Lyon has resulted in lower crowds.
;p
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Raglan Matt said You Beaut

Bizkit Moneyball 6 years 5 months ago #45

Bizkit
The part where I wrote "The winning of games wasn't enough to bring a lot of those supporters back and the style of play didn't encourage new supporters to jump on board or the old ones to return" is in relation to the ugly footy employed under RL.

Those AFL attendances you consistently want to relate to Freo's are based on 2 new sides coming into the competition and playing 12 or more home games that struggle to get 10,000 people to them. The overall attendance was reasonably steady before the expansion sides debut in 2011 which saw a dramatic drop in average attendances but not much change in the total attendance. I'm sure I could go into each year to observe why there was a specific rise or fall in AFL attendances but I again struggle to see the relevance to our ability to fill our own stadium.

As for the 2007 comparison, you brought that into this thread based on a comparison I used in an old thread regarding our last rebuild.
Nathan: When did you get balls?
Simon: I've always had balls you've just never seen them.
Nathan: That's the gayest thing I've ever heard.
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RideoftheVagaries Moneyball 6 years 5 months ago #46

RideoftheVagaries
Ok Biz let’s take Bernie to the ball park one more time.

Starting with your last point first, the whole 2007 thing came from your outraged indignation at Jezza’s loose use of wonky stats. Ironically you went to trump him using the spurious method of two periods discrete from each other (2007-2010 vs 2015-17). This immediately raised some red flags about what we were missing in the intervening years. Not to mention that, perhaps just by chance, 2007 and 2010 were top 3 years for attendances for the AFL, WC and Freo.

Anyways moving onto the stats, and while you poo-pooed using WC and AFL stats (while finding a broader definition of “consistently” that includes once), despite them sharing some striking patterns with Freo’s highwater marks. I’m not sure you quite understood how I used the AFL stats.

The AFL stats were used (like the WC ones) to see if those trends were different to Freo’s in the Lyon years. The focus was on the increases/decreases on a year by year basis, so the drop in average attendances from the expansion sides can be neutralised. In fact the combined expansion side attendances grew more or less from year to year anyways.

But, just to clear your mind on it, the take below shows the year by year increases/decreases with the expansion sides and Freo taken out of the AFL variances. I’ve also left out the averages and just kept it to 2011-2015 (pre us meeting the cliff-face) for simplicities sake:

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2011 >> 2012 >>> 2013 >> 2014 >> 2015
Non-Expan/Non-Freo >> -2.6% >> -5.6% >> 2.3% >> -0.1% >> 0.3%
>>>>>>>>>Fremantle >> -6.0% >> -2.9% >> 2.6% >> 4.9% >> 0.8%

So again we can see that during Lyon’s years, pre-2016, any decreases were less than the AFL’s (non-expansion sides), while increases were greater. This is not to say Freo were ahead of the curve, but that the gameplan theory is not supported by the stats.

And finally, while I can appreciate you softening your stance on the gameplan-attendances theory, even allowing for corrosive club changes disaffecting fans amongst other factors, you original stance was that the game plan has created poor attendances.
;p
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rogerrocks said You Beaut