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TOPIC: Moneyball

Sox Moneyball 6 years 6 months ago #1

Sox
Well, the season is over, trade period has ended, the draft is a ways off... time for some wild and pointless speculation. About time for my annual post as well, so...

So, I was having a chat with a mate last night in a little pub in Melbourne about statistical analysis in AFL football. As you do. He was arguing that the AFL is decades behind the rest of the world when it comes to using statistical analysis in sports. My question was: how do you know? It always seems to me that the clubs jealously guard their analytics and methods and, shirley... SURELY these massive multimillion dollar organisations (that have massive multimillion dollar financial swings based on on-field performance) are doing all that can be done. But if there's a moneyball style shift to be made to grab an advantage in the AFL system, then where is it going to come from? How do we get it done?

Some thoughts;

i. Over trade period we all develop some strong opinions about which players are OVERvalued and which players are UNDERVALUED. And surely moneyball was all about using statistical analysis to target UNDERvalued players. So how do you find the undervalued? is it about smart positional acquisitions (eg. grab the tall forward that you need from the club with too many tall forwards), is it about grabbing underpaid players from clubs with bursting salarycaps (eg. grab the 5th best midfielder in the comp, that happens to be the 3rd best midfielder at a club and so wants more money than the club can cough up)?

Clicky for article about positional acquisitions being "moneyball"

ii. Moneyball, as a film, is predicated on a club being in such a dire position that new approaches had to be taken. It was challenging the baseball statusquo. I like to believe that AFL is developing gradually and won't require this. My bitter anger at the financial focus of the Steve's that crushed the core of our club is a symptom of this kind of growth, though one look at the AFL media shows how much of a dated boys-club the sport can be. So where do the new ideas come from?

Clicky for some speculation after Emma Quayle's move to the Giants

iii. Is sabermetric analysis even practical for a sport like AFL. baseball is a simple, stop-start games with some easily identifiable and recordable outcomes. The shift of that kind of statistical analysis even into Basketball and soccor has been incredibly slow, inconsistent and has yet to show decent results. And AFL is more complex again - anyone that's played an AFL computer game and compared it to a FIFA game of the same era has seen the problem (yes, the AFL games have lacked the funding, but the broader problem of trying to program all of the mechanics of an AFL game, and the complex decisions that an AFL player routinely makes is the bigger problem).

clicky for some vague waffle about those GPS vests and analytics in the US

iv. If there was ever a team that looked like it was Moneyball'd to the top of the ladder is was Ross Lyon's St Kilda. Seriously. A rag-tag bunch of athletes drilled into a defensive, quick transitioning machine. But it couldn't win a premiership. Just like the Oakland As in the aforementioned film, statistical analysis seems to deliver a very high chance of success but can't guarantee success on a given day (ie. the first week in October... yeah, that just doesn't sound right...) So is a Moneyball approach worthwhile? (my two cents: mathing a team to the top of the ladder and rolling a dice on the premiership sounds more fun than footballing a team into a premiership mould and rolling a dice that they make the finals.)

clicky for Ross Lyon on Moneyball (third party)

v. If you've made it this far into this mammoth post then you deserve a reward.

clicky for some pictures of Lauchie Neale
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goodie, Nodgey, finalport, Stoney said You Beaut

Raglan Matt Moneyball 6 years 6 months ago #2

Raglan Matt
Moneyball was a film not a documentary.
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shane Moneyball 6 years 6 months ago #3

shane
The sort of player I'd expect to be picked up with a moneyball style system is someone like Kepler Bradley, maybe Matt deBoer. Who seem to impact a game in an important way but there doesn't seem to be a conventional system that identifies that.

I imagine the AFL and Champion Data would come up with someone like Tom Sherridan.
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Sox, Raglan Matt said You Beaut

Morgan Moneyball 6 years 6 months ago #4

Morgan
I think the technology most likely to benefit the AFL is something like the SportVU technology used in basketball, which is tracks all player movement on the court. It can break down an incredible amount of statistics, but perhaps most usefully if can be used as a teaching tool to bridge the gap of where the players are on the field, and where the coaches think the players should be. At Freo, for example, you could track the cost/benefit of keeping player forward, when they should be there, and use it to teach players not to drift too far into defence.

The limit to this technology is how well you code for specific requirements; coding for 36 moving parts on a field does not sound easy.

I'd also love someone to run the analysis of whether football is actually a 'strong link' or 'weak link' sport. In other words, should recruiters expend more effort (in terms of salary and draft picks) shooting for superstars, or should they be ensuring that the worst players on their team are better than the opposition's. So, if you had two late first round picks, are you better off keeping them for a chance of drafting two solid 150 game players, or trading for an early first rounder and the chance to pick up an All-Australian.

Or, in the case of salary, do you pay your superstar whatever it takes to keep him, or let him walk so you can pay more for players 16-20.
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Raglan Matt Moneyball 6 years 6 months ago #5

Raglan Matt
Footy is a weak link sport. Basketball is a strong link sport, as is Soccer. Cricket seems to me to be a weak link sport with some strong link overtones.
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purple mao said You Beaut

Sox Moneyball 6 years 6 months ago #6

Sox
The Boss seems a weak link coach of sorts, where Connolly was a strong link coach. I don’t know if I could pin down Clarkson.
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frankmac Moneyball 6 years 6 months ago #7

frankmac
Not sure drifting too far into defence is ever going to get you told off by roly.
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Sox, Raglan Matt, Corporal Agarn said You Beaut

RideoftheVagaries Moneyball 6 years 6 months ago #8

RideoftheVagaries
The main idea of money ball is that there are/were massive misleading biases operating in sporting team drafting under the guise of conventional wisdoms (or even with the temptation of shiny newfangle wizbangery). If you can bypass these personal and institutionalised biases with an accurate and objective system you will get a much more effective and efficient path to success. So it isn't one method, but several could fit under that idea.

I'd say footy is a weak link sport in so far as if you can get all18-22'blokes to operate on the same page then you have a massive advantage, than say 5 or 11or even 15. Especially as footy probably has the biggest percentage of players being potentially able to be part of active play across the biggest geographical area. In other words cohesion is a bigger challenge, but also bigger reward, in Aussie Rules.
;p
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Mercury Moneyball 6 years 6 months ago #9

Mercury
Want to look for Moneyball type statistics in our game? Look for players with a high average of, say, winning contested possessions, but are low on the aggregate ladder because they are not given enough opportunities or are being played out of their best position.

If I was to name a Moneyball player it is/was Alex Silvagni.


PS: Read it all, Sox. Nice work. Even watched the Moneyball clip.
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Sox Moneyball 6 years 6 months ago #10

Sox
You’re a scholar and a gentleman, Merc.
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snoop Moneyball 6 years 6 months ago #11

snoop
Great work Sox, lifting the bar. And Maths - love it.

Stumbled upon this through some links in Sox's articles: www.hpnfooty.com/?p=24606

Lachie Weller was rated at Pick 2-5 --> got him for pick 2
Brandon Matera was rated for Pick 42 --> got him future third round (36-54)

About right then.
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Wedge Antilles Moneyball 6 years 6 months ago #12

Wedge Antilles
Postby dcstkfc » Mon 20 Sep 2010 1:21am
Ross is such a clever and dedicated operator. He is the best thing to happen to the footy club since Tony Lockett.


Poor tacker... The problem isn't the complexity of the sport itself, it's that the AFL and Champion Data have ownership of the data and won't let anyone access it.

The NBA's stats are basically open source so anyone can come along and analyse the raw data directly. Not possible with the AFL so we're left with Champion Data rating Luke McPharlin 200th in the comp when he's in All-Australian form (I've probably distorted that but you get the point).
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rogerrocks Moneyball 6 years 6 months ago #13

rogerrocks
Don't know if footy is a weak link sport or not. What you do see is that the best teams are more even in their ball use. That is, they don't think that they have to kick to one of their stars - they can go to anyone. Which means the opposition have to try and cover all options, and it should mean that you are less predictable. So the opposition have to cover all your players, and they don't know what you'll do next.

But then you have people like James Hird. When he was on song at Essendon, as soon as he looked like getting the ball his players would just take off, because they knew he could do something very good with his disposals. So there you have a star really boosting the whole team.

Of course a weak player in a good team always looks pretty good. And if the team is structured so they just do what they are good at even better.
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Mercury Moneyball 6 years 6 months ago #14

Mercury
This site is pretty good for AFL stats: finalsiren.com/

Although, it seems to have some issues at present. Maybe try clicking on it later.
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