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Not sure he would fit in.

TOPIC: Not sure he would fit in.

Jason Not sure he would fit in. 6 years 7 months ago #29

Jason
SCOS was/is injury prone and inclined to brain fades that would rub him out for weeks at a time - usually when we had no cover in the twos. Not exactly attributes to build a backline around.

So which of Ryan, Collins, Hamling and/or Nyhuis do we hand back in order to give SCOS a run?

He was only ever a depth player and in later years, younger blokes (quite rightly) went past him.

Nothing to see here...
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rogerrocks Not sure he would fit in. 6 years 7 months ago #30

rogerrocks
In the interview Luke made it clear that not being allowed to fly for marks was because he messed one up. So for me Roly takes some blame when players lose confidence. If he does think that certain players (Zac D, for example) should punch rather than mark, he really needs to build a case for it. In Luke's case I don't think there was a case - it was just a gut reaction from Roly.
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Bizkit Not sure he would fit in. 6 years 7 months ago #31

Bizkit
You had a lot to say there Jason which effectively proved my point. Elvis stopped flying for marks and went straight into RL footy of punch and defend, as a result he received top marks from his coach in RL's first season and won a b&f.

Pretty much all of your points prove the whole 'do what RL says or your gone' point I was making. If Wilson continued to play the way he does for GWS, RL would be roasting him after almost every game for attacking with the footy when we have no forward set up in place and questioning why he didn't do the team thing of holding up the footy and switching it, waiting for an option that rarely ever presents.

There are few players who bag their coach but instead have 'differences of opinion' and RL has just as many as any other coach. He has as many detractors as he has people supporting him and it's not a fair measure to say one player supports him so he must be right or one player disagrees so he must be wrong. At that point you're just picking and choosing which opinions align with your own to support your point (for example I have disagreed with a lot of Pav's ideas this season commentating despite him being the best player to wear purple).

In reference to your 'losing with flair' allegations, everyone on this site and in the football world could see the growth and potential in Freo during 2010 and winning a final against the Hawks with such a young team displayed it to the country. There was no 'losing with flair', it was about the potential dominance of the young team we possessed and what we could achieve over the next few years. Your projections of any relation to the democrats are purely your own.
Nathan: When did you get balls?
Simon: I've always had balls you've just never seen them.
Nathan: That's the gayest thing I've ever heard.
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Jason said You Beaut

Jason Not sure he would fit in. 6 years 7 months ago #32

Jason
So what you're saying in the AA selectors also fell for Roly's - punch-not-mark theory (of your's)??

Similarly, the entire voting group for the Doig Medal did as Roly said and 'rewarded' Luke for curbing his natural instinct?

It's hard to take anything else you said seriously with comments like that

I'd also suggest a review of a few games from 2012 as you'll see Luke flying (and taking) plenty of speccies.

We get it, you don't like RL, but don't use obtuse and, dare I say manufactured, 'truths' to tarnish his quite significant achievements. By that I mean, the first Docker's coach to:
win multiple finals in one season,
win a final in Victoria (2),
take the Dockers to consecutive final series (4),
beat the Weagles 6 times in a row
earn home prelims (2)
take a Docker's team into a Grand Final
Win an AFL trophy...

These ARE indisputable facts. Not opinions based on questionable logic and heresay
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shane Not sure he would fit in. 6 years 7 months ago #33

shane
Here's where I have a problem with your thesis, Jason. If someone says that Ross Lyon doesn't want players to play on natural instinct the counter point to that should be 'no he doesn't, because it's been a proven successful formula for him'.

You'd have to be blind to think that Ross Lyon is a coach who enjoys his players playing open free flowing instinctive football. So it's only a criticism of him if you view controlled, disciplined football as a negative.
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Jason Not sure he would fit in. 6 years 7 months ago #34

Jason
Or the counter argument is you do the best you can with the talent available.

It's not like the Docker's had a list chock full of 'instinctive' talent when he came across. I could argue his tough love on Walters ultimately produced one such player but maybe I should break it down a bit more to assist my explanation.

I would argue RL gives certain players, usually forward of centre, a licence to use their natural flair. Walters, Ballas, Milne to name a few. Maybe that's because errors in the forward line generally don't hurt you on the scoreboard. Fyfe, Pav and others who float between centre & forward also tend/ed to use their instincts to good effect in the air and on the ground. No surprise those types are out and out champions.


AAJohnno also uses his footy instincts to good effect to intercept/side-step opponents and Luuuuukkkkke would also take the game on with his pace and aerial skills to good effect when his body was up to it.

And in the end that's what the key is - letting A grade players operate on 'instinct' has less negatives than positives. Letting everyone do the same thing does not tend to work so well when players confuse their abilities with their ambitions.

In the back half, errors kill you on the score board and when you're a side light on for key forwards that can keep you in a high-scoring goal fest - that usually means more losses than wins.

We're in a sport, like most, that ultimately judges you on wins and losses. If that means you need to restrict the opposition from scoring by tempering the natural 'flair' of the defenders given that task - to ensure the score you CAN put on the board wins more games than not - well, I call that good coaching.

So in conclusion, I don't think it a black and white issue. I believe their is enough evidence to suggest Roly does allow (certain) players to trust their instincts and the rest can do as they're damn well told.

Does that clarify it enough for you, Shane? This typing on a phone is torture...
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rogerrocks, Noddy, R.Lyon said You Beaut

Drubbing Not sure he would fit in. 6 years 7 months ago #35

Drubbing
Lyon career is well proven. He is a defence based coach. It's not that he's never had attacking, instinctive, take on the game players in his teams. It's appears he doesn't coach that aspect as part of a team structure and strategy. If he does, he's sucks at it. Watching the Crows play tonight, it appears Pyke does coach it.

Lyon might have got teams to GFs with defence-first grinding, stoppage football, but surely you've noticed the AFL have reduced rotations to make that sort of football near impossible. How has Lyon's record been since then?
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teasea, Corporal Agarn said You Beaut

Bizkit Not sure he would fit in. 6 years 7 months ago #36

Bizkit
The knock on Harvey was his plans weren't strict enough and were too open, essentially the opposite to RL. That's what Pav had trouble with but it allowed other more instinctual and youthful players to thrive. If you were already an established player who knew your game, rules and instructions were what you craved where as a new kid working on his craft needs that freedom to be able to practice in the elite conditions of AFL football.

Sure I don't think RL did a great job with what he inherited but that doesn't mean I'm wrong regarding the impact his coaching has had on the player group and will continue to have. It's very easy to see what sort of coach RL is and it's been laid out many times before, he likes instruction, plans and defense. None of these interact particularly well with instinct which is the topic at hand. His 'achievements' as coach in my opinion are a direct result of the talented playing group he inherited opposed to his abilities as a coach but that's not what we're discussing.

In regards to Elvis, the coaching group judge the Doig and do so on how well the players follow coaching instructions. Blakely can go and pick up 35 touches and kick goals but if he didn't follow the coaches instructions in the process then he gets no votes. Elvis very clearly changed his attacking style to a punch first and take the safe option tact in opposition to his natural flair to attack and take on his opponent. It still worked well because we had flooded back and controlled the resulting congestion (and he was a gun) but we also had no avenue forward from that stunted play and so struggled more in transition.

Without going into the detail of every players history pre/post RL , it's pretty simple to see in the way we play and how RL coaches, he wants players performing the roles assigned to them and not to play on instinct. Sure, players are still going to use their natural ability to play the game at times but that has clearly been curbed under RL.Wilson would certainly find the same problem at Freo.

Whether that's a good or bad thing is up to you but I find the best players work far better off instincts than strict rules and instructions,
Nathan: When did you get balls?
Simon: I've always had balls you've just never seen them.
Nathan: That's the gayest thing I've ever heard.
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Jason Not sure he would fit in. 6 years 7 months ago #37

Jason
Drub, he got us to top of the ladder and a home Prelim once the rotation cap came in in 2014 - or are we only talking about seasons when we've lost key players to injury/retirement, turned over list and been crap?
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Corporal Agarn Not sure he would fit in. 6 years 7 months ago #38

Corporal Agarn
Actually I don't give a rat's a**e where he got us to back in 2014. I'm more concerned about the biggest plummet in AFL history since. I'm sick to death of being easy beats, bit of a joke, nothings, whatever.
The club and the coach made all these OTT statements about sustained success, winning culture etc and we haven't efffing got it. So in my mind put up or goodbye both coach and board.
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fradonjan, cletus, Lazza040 said You Beaut

jimb2 Not sure he would fit in. 6 years 7 months ago #39

jimb2
This argument is crazy and romantic.

No one plays instinctive football at afl level. They are all totally coached and trained. There is a game plan. Players train many hours a week to improve their skill and judgements beyond their instincts and to incorporate strategic objectives into their play.

AFL football might look instinctive at times but that's about it. The players who look more instinctive, more often, are actually the better skilled, better drilled and faster players. The underlying method of sports training is to produce a optimal set of optimal learned actions and responses that become automatic so the player doesn't have to think (with the slow brain) about what he is doing. When that works, everyone starts banging on about "instinctive play". Well-drilled is more accurate.

If you want instincts, watch the little guys at half time. The all do their own thing, no one cooperates, and there's no plan beyond scrambling the ball your way. Or watch cats fight. That's instinct.
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larkin, Jezza, Noddy, R.Lyon said You Beaut

Drubbing Not sure he would fit in. 6 years 7 months ago #40

Drubbing
You're confusing team structure and strategy, with skill. Dawson has but one. Try and teach him to kick via drilled repetition. Then watch him never do it. He sticks to a rigid structure. He does not deviate. That much has been drilled into him. He is the model automaton of Lyon's approach. It's why he's played so many games on limited ability.

Tell me a coach that can coach Walters when to sell dummy, drop a ball down the lines and gather it back to himself, or having the confidence to go for a banana, rather than find a handball target, in a split second.

This is instinctive skill. It comes into play when playing in team structures which get ball in those positions in the first place. Unfortunately, our forward entries are so opportunistic, we have to rely on freak skills and some luck, instead of getting the ball to a kicking forward. Where drilled skills come into play.
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Raglan Matt said You Beaut

Raglan Matt Not sure he would fit in. 6 years 7 months ago #41

Raglan Matt
I don't think Graham Moss or the Norths coaches coached Jimmy and Phil, although watching Phil on Marngrook the other day, Sylvia might have taken over Phil's post career training regime.
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Corporal Agarn said You Beaut

Jezza Not sure he would fit in. 6 years 7 months ago #42

Jezza
A good coach once said to me, players who play on instinct are born with those traits. They're a rare commodity. I'm not sure how you can coach that out of any player. Those instincts will kick in when an opportunity presents. To be brutally honest the best team coach in Australia for the last decade or so is the Melbourne Storm coach, Craig Bellamy. It might pay for some on this forum to research Bellamy because you'd be surprised by your findings and your view of our coach.
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