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TOPIC: Roly

Corporal Agarn Roly 7 years 8 months ago #57

Corporal Agarn
So our fitness level was buggered by the start of the season because we were concentrating on our skills too much.

Pretty ironic, seeing as our skills would be worse than previously.
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Burton said You Beaut

Bizkit Roly 7 years 8 months ago #58

Bizkit
I am certainly one of the more critical voices in regards to RL and I don't deny that, it's pretty obvious. The reason for it isn't a dislike of him (although I am still bitter at Harvs sacking), it's primarily providing a more balanced and often contrary view of his decisions than most.

Because he coached St Kilda to a GF and everyone claimed he was a master coach, all his mistakes and dodgy coaching gets swept under the rug and often viewed as being a good decision even when it doesn't work. Good things are wrongly attributed to him and bad things are attached to others which I like to point out.

Take Son Son's 'rejuvenation' as an example. He was a gun before RL came to the club but had a poor off season and wasn't up to standard. RL gets all the credit for turning him around and making him a star despite it being the leadership group who set the standards, the punishment and accepted him back into the group. His output was statistically the same on return as it was before going back to Swan Districts (who also had more to do with his turn around than RL)

Then there's Crowley's return to the side as a tagger. You may not remember but he was stationed on a half forward flank with kids coming through and doing a better job than him as a midfielder. Chief among them was Dutchy who had taken over the hard nut tagging role and proven himself exceptional at shutting down superstars like Judd while dishing the ball out to our outside runners. Along comes RL and moves Dutchy to a half forward flank while Crowley goes back to tagging (and does it well) and he is celebrated for saving Crowley's career. But what about Dutchy? He is in his prime atm and can't get in the side because he was shifted to a horrible role he isn't well suited for and is now cast aside and forgotten about despite doing just as good a job as Crowley while also helping gain inside ball.

RL isn't perfect and as the season goes on I think he's less and less likely to be the best person to oversee a rebuild.
Nathan: When did you get balls?
Simon: I've always had balls you've just never seen them.
Nathan: That's the gayest thing I've ever heard.
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ghq, guy smiley, DazzElle, teasea, Burton said You Beaut

guy smiley Roly 7 years 8 months ago #59

guy smiley
What I'm referring to, ROTV, is the looseness around what Roly 'has done' vs what "Harvey didn't do'.

The team was at a different stage of development, maturity, etc. Too many variables.

I'm not trying to defend Harves here so much as question the support for Lyon.

My main reason for doing that is that I think that support should be questioned. Hard. Repeatedly. Often.

I think he should be made to feel uncomfortably accountable. Night sweats uncomfortable. Ceiling fan like a chopper on the Mekong uncomfortable.

Whubba Whubba Whubba Roly.
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Bizkit said You Beaut

The_Yeti Roly 7 years 8 months ago #60

The_Yeti
All that lacked was "I love the smell of liniment in the morning. Its the smell of victory'

Critical evaluations of Roly should be happening, not just by the members and supporters but especially by the football manager and the board. Unfortunately, as seen by the 'big review' into all things footy recently done by the club, its easy to get a good review when you review yourself.

I've said it before and nothing has changed. Our situation has needed to be addressed and corrections made. I've seen no sign of either occurrence this season.
Egurls Suck!
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Corporal Agarn said You Beaut

themagoos Roly 7 years 8 months ago #61

themagoos
He lost me last year when he refused to put valuable game time into kids like Blakely, Grey and Weller despite the fact that the team was obviously ailing and limping towards the finals. Their enthusiasm and attack on the footy might have made all the difference. If it wasn't for injuries, young guns like Collins et al would still be plugging away in the magoos, probably for years.

But in the context of this season, with nothing to lose but plenty of local bragging rights to gain, if he doesn't get the team roused for this week's Derby then my head will explode.
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ICONDOCKER, Noddy, Burton said You Beaut

RideoftheVagaries Roly 7 years 8 months ago #62

RideoftheVagaries
Sorry Guy, that fails the specificity test.

How was what I said "loose" about what Lyon has done and about what Harvey hasn't done? Specific examples for your aspersions would be nice.

As I said separating out what's the coach from what's the players is a bit like the American patrols in the 70's trying to sort out the Viet Cong from the concerned locals. It's hard to do and there's a high potential for emotions to be in the drivers seat. So our best bet is just to say well what do we know what happened when they were coach. I'm not really a fan of the comparison either (I didn't really compare them directly anyways), I think Bizkit was more directly comparative.

It's silly to think Lyon will have no heat put on him of the type that can be done here. You just needed to see the comments that were left when he did the "Ask the Coach" piece for the AFL. I don't think there's any concern any needs to feel they champion the "adding balance" to Lyon sycophancy on Dockerland. I reckon it would weigh comfortably as far as that goes.
;p
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ChewyBoot Roly 7 years 8 months ago #63

ChewyBoot
Bizkit, those correcting the record examples aren't factual, and they don't enhance your opinion as being more balanced.

I suppose someone will bring out the highlight reel of the banana goal Michael Walters kicked near the final siren in his 9th game that save us from an embarrassing loss against Brisbane in Round 1,2011 - but the facts are that he only played one more full game against Geelong in Round 2, was made sub against Adelaide in Round 3 and then was DROPPED to the WAFL and through suspension and injury sustained in the WAFL, never played for Fremantle under Harvey again.

Yes, he was regarded as one of the best juniors in the country at U16 levels - and so was Dayle Garlett. I don't regard playing 11 games in 3 seasons as being an established player.

And there aren't any other games where your statement about DeBoer being "exceptional at shutting down superstars like Judd" can be shown to be anything more than just your wishful thinking. Deboer has done some tagging jobs under both coaches but I can't see where that has happened effectively against Judd.

From the latter half of 2010 onwards when Crowley's tagging role was diminished, it was primarily given to Adam McPhee, who did play on Chris Judd twice in that season.

The only other games that DeBoer and Judd played in opposite teams were one season prior to 2010. In 2009 (where Crowley only played the first 6 games of the season - if you recall Crowley and Palmer both had seasons ending injuries in a game against Sydney) and Judd's possessions are a 35 with Browlow votes at Subiaco - and a 28 in a game up at Carrara - where the role was given to (surprise) Garrick Ibbotson who had 23 possessions of his own.
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Rhufus Roly 7 years 8 months ago #64

Rhufus
I dont dislike Roly, in fact I supported the selection of Roly purely because I thought he was a better coach than Harvs. I still do. Sure I felt sorry for Harvs but I also felt sorry for myself having been a Docker supporter since inception and having suffered over the years, so I thought stuff it, get him in, Im glad.

The problem though, is Roly might be better than Harvs but hes not as good as Clarkson.

All these discussions about whether its the cattle, the injuries or the coaching. Ask yourself one question: If Clarkson had come to Freo say in 2010 and Roly had gone to Hawks in 2010, how many flags would each club have won??
When you are trying to win a flag, all critique has to be measured up against the yard stick. Im not interested if hes better than Simpson or Pyke, i compare him to Clarkson and at this stage, Bizkit is right, hes needs to improve.

The problem is, ive seen no evidence in three years or so of any significant changes to the way he goes about it.
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ICONDOCKER said You Beaut

RideoftheVagaries Roly 7 years 8 months ago #65

RideoftheVagaries
Yeah but no one in coaching today has even come close to matching what Clarkson has achieved. It also is worth keeping in mind Clarkson has been at the Hawks for nearly 12 years and has had the chance to fully shape that team to be what he wants. Sure you wouldn't say it's a thousand monkeys job, but it's an advantage that no-one else has at the moment.
;p
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Bizkit Roly 7 years 8 months ago #66

Bizkit
You're right Chewy, I shouldn't have used Judd as part of my example, his was just the first name that came to mind. Nevertheless, in 2011 Dutchy had taken over tagging duties and was doing a very good job. Without trawling through Dockerland archives I'm sure there would be many posts from myself and others heaping praise on him in the role.

As for Sonny, he averaged 1.3 goals a game before RL took over and was limited due to injuries and youth. He played the final 5 games of 2010 in his second year including 2 finals and was fantastic in them against quality sides of the time including the Hawks (twice), Geelong and Sydney. He had looked to have established himself along with Ballas as our small forwards and started 2011 the same way (playing the first 3 games) before injuries ruined his year like it did to many of our players that season. I certainly regarded him as an established player when fit and I'm sure the vast majority of Freo supporters had him penciled into a pocket, especially as he grew and matured.

The point of my examples was to say RL wasn't the messiah doing incredible things like most commentators enjoy spouting, turning a couple of careers around when that wasn't entirely true. He had little to do with Son Son who grew up and continued to develop and he sacrificed Dutchy to prolong Crowley's career a few years.
Nathan: When did you get balls?
Simon: I've always had balls you've just never seen them.
Nathan: That's the gayest thing I've ever heard.
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Docker by the Sea Roly 7 years 8 months ago #67

Docker by the Sea
This year seems to have a very similar tone to the year prior to Harvey getting the bullet with the number of injuries decimating us. Throughout the period that we were elite we were unable to manage our list to have our most critical players available, or at their peak. I don't know if these are the same staff or who is accountable, for this but it has jacked me off for a long time. I would like to see what happens in this space to ensure that we have our best team available to be able to judge.

I will reserve my judgement on how Ross Lyon is coaching until I have had the chance to see our best team play through the first 8-12 rounds next year. I do know we were very close to taking the chocolates a couple of years ago against a fairly reasonable football team. Finished top of the ladder last year and were playing a style of footy early that had people talking. I don't know what the problem is at the moment they seem to be numerous. I am concerned that something has gone badly off the rails.

The quality of the players that are putting their hands put come here seems to be on the improve with Bennell, McCarthy and now Brad Hill nominating us as the club that they would like to play for. This to me indicates we are doing some things right. I qualify this with that we now need to secure them.

To jump off a coach with a record like Ross Lyons there would have to be something pretty special available to replace him, any suggestions on this one.
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purple mao said You Beaut

rogerrocks Roly 7 years 8 months ago #68

rogerrocks
The other similarity with Harves last year is that was the year when we lost our Scott brother as an assistant coach, and this year we lost Kirk as an assistant coach. That we attribute all success and failure to the senior coach is a bit of a human failure.
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shirtfront Roly 7 years 8 months ago #69

shirtfront
the coaching and conditioning staff got it wrong preseason...too many players failed to bulk up and a number of players lost bulk to cater for the new speed, endurance and elite skill mindset...sandi is kilos lighter which doesnt help him in contests against the big ruckmen in the system....go back to the future...aka sydney, who havent changed their style, just bought a few outstanding youngsters through their system who know their roles and setup already from their feeder team
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DS said You Beaut

Flag_2005 Roly 7 years 8 months ago #70

Flag_2005
Except we don't have a feeder team and can't outbid other teams at the draft to add Isaac Heeney and Callum Mills to our list.
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Raglan Matt said You Beaut
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