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TOPIC: Coach Lyon

ChewyBoot Coach Lyon 7 years 11 months ago #85

ChewyBoot
Morgan, I was aware of those results from the first half of 2011.

I would suggest the injury list was just as significant in the years 2012 and 2013.

My point was, as everyone can see by the scorelines (if they can't remember the actual games) we weren't playing the attractive free flowing football at the beginning of 2011 under Mark Harvey - and it wasn't injuries that was preventing that. People who think every game that Haves coached was exciting attractive football is suffering from selective amnesia. In fact you can go back further and look at the 2nd half of 2010 and see how the numbers were dropping off and the win loss ratio was something like 6 wins out of the last 14 games.

In the context of not having played in finals in 2006 and making it in 2010 - the trajectory of the team was upwards. The finals win against Hawthorn at home was meritorious considering we were slight underdogs - although the comments by the Alistair Clarkson after the game about how the other teams in the 8 would be happy about Hawthorn being elimanated indicates the arrogance that they approached that game including playing underdone players.

The Hawthorn of 2010 was nowhere near the team its been in more recent years. Their away record was horrible and they even went down to the 2010 Spooners at Subiaco oval earlier in the year. The final we played against Geelong the following week, which was over by quarter time (8:1 to 1:1) was an indication of how far off top 4 we were.

If the people complaining about the wins last year as being ugly football they've obviously not remembered how the first half of 2011 panned out. This is not a popular view now, but if there were archives of Dockerland from that year, I could show exactly how people were reacting after those games.

St Kilda were a successful side with their defensive pressure and I think to some extent Harvs wanted to incorporate some of that game style given how far off we actually were against Geelong in a Final at the MCG . I'm not saying it was a bad thing to attempt to copy, and I think most teams have that defensive game now ( I saw that shot from behind the goals where no one was in Adelaide's forward half when we were controlling the game in the first quarter), but apparently its only Ross Lyon's "Rolyball" that floods players back when a team is under constant bombardment inside their forward 50.
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guy smiley Coach Lyon 7 years 11 months ago #86

guy smiley
Awww, so you want to keep at it with the Harvey Lyon comparisons...

which is pointless. It's pointless because it's unquantifiable. To put that another way, then compare every other coach with both of them over the same time lines, then add in player age / experience factors. Do some fancy arse footwork and you might even be able to put it all on a graph.

Or, you could get over the favouritism thing and look at what is and has been happening. If you want to go back to comparisons against the Harvey era, then consider how a sustained period of poor results was received and dealt with then and compare that to now. People want to justify Roly's tenure by saying he's the best coach around. I can't actually see what that is based on apart from the Steves told us.
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Bizkit, shane, DazzElle, freofan61, Derby12 said You Beaut

RideoftheVagaries Coach Lyon 7 years 11 months ago #87

RideoftheVagaries
The impression I get is that results weren't the main reason Harvey got sacked.
;p
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Flag_2005 Coach Lyon 7 years 11 months ago #88

Flag_2005
I would have thought Ross has got a few runs on the board so that the S word isn't going to come into consideration for quite some time.
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jameshome Coach Lyon 7 years 11 months ago #89

jameshome
Lyon certainly had that slept on the couch last night look. I'm curious to see how much it will take out of the current top teams to maintain their fast transition game all the way to September. I would suppose all sides are analyzing other teams' game plans religiously. So is Roly's "plan" a reaction to this? Or is it an alternative to this? We can adopt and adapt the better parts of their plans. For example, the Slime's web seems to be a general press method that everyone is moving towards or adjusting their plans to incorporate it. North's methods seem to be rock solid so far too.
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Jooter Coach Lyon 7 years 11 months ago #90

Jooter
James, how teams perform in Sept given the new rules is a very good question. Rodney Eade brought it up early on, that he would be open to resting players during the season; he mentioned a rest after every 6 games. The gist was that no one would play out all the games in a season given the new rules on rotation. How that would actually play out is another question.
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teasea Coach Lyon 7 years 11 months ago #91

teasea
Until your comment Noddy I haven't seen posts about replacing Roly regardless of whether we like him or not. We know we are stuck with him for the next 5yrs and all hope he can rebuild so not sure what a couple of you are on about.

BTW I met HArvs after the sacking at a dinner for him where he talked so many people into not giving up on our players and FFC even tho he was absolutely devastated himself - I realised then he would never coach again as he wasn't a 'career type coach' but had put himself into it too deeply regardless of whether he could coach or not - probably believed the Club wouldn't do the dirty on him as well. He soon realised what a cut throat business he was in. Roly obviously knows and can look after himself. I don't get why people have to knock others so much. Even CC did some good stuff for us and got players believing in themselves again but we moved on and I can't see a reason to knock him either. Did the best he could.

Into my 22nd year and aren't about to give up
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ChewyBoot Coach Lyon 7 years 11 months ago #92

ChewyBoot
Guy Smiley - Actually I was trying to clarify and earlier post which maybe I didn't write clearly enough and which I thought was misunderstood by Morgan, and the comparison was really between people who were saying our defensive style of play has left them so joyless that win/loss record has virtually been futile, to a time in the past under a different coach when we were also winning ugly, and people were saying the same thing, except with revisionist spendor we apparently only ever played high scoring exciting football then, and have only ever played dour painful to watch football since 2012.

I'm not justifying that this coach is better than the other - but I am suggesting that Harvs - being the more experimental of the coaches was more open to incorporating and adapting ideas from what he saw as successful in other teams- and one of those was things he began to implement into Fremantle's game style was that defensive style of pressure that was part of St Kilda's trait under Ross Lyon.

Uptil now, I don't think Ross has had to do that because he's had faith, some would say stubborn faith, with what's taken him to deep into finals. Its apparent that after winning only one of his last 5 finals he's seen the need for change, and right now its looking for the worse, rather than the better.

I'm kind of a loyal dog to all of our coaches though - I didn't think it was right to sack Harvs or force CC to resign either. If I wanted to make shallow comparisons betweem Ross and Harvs I would have just mentioned their head to head record.
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Morgan said You Beaut

Bizkit Coach Lyon 7 years 11 months ago #93

Bizkit
I don't believe it's 'revisionist spendor' to say games were more enjoyable under Harvs opposed to RL. There were bad times under Harvs but the overwhelming style of play was positive and attacking, where players were able to run free and show off their skills more. It was exciting and fun to watch even when the result didn't go our way though most of the time it did despite a very young side combined with some superstars.

Every Freo supporter had high hopes watching what we were capable of and knowing the improvement in almost every player. The end of 2010 had many injuries and a number of sore players continuing on through the pain as can be seen in Pav's book. They managed to ruin our 2011 despite our exciting finals campaign the previous year and resulted in Harv's sacking as we were never able to get everyone back or allow them enough time to heal properly (or we wouldn't have 22 on the field).

Even through that injury filled year I enjoyed the football despite it not being high scoring in our favour because the players were still able to go out and show off their talent even though it was not up to par with a lot of younger and inexperienced players cast into the coalface. That was the standard under Harvey and not playing that style of football was the exception. Under RL that free flowing football was the exception, not the norm.

It's the first time I've heard the argument/idea Harvs copied RL's tactics from St Kilda or anyone else for that matter. I don't think too many commentators or journalists equated St Kilda with the invention of high pressure football let alone using it too much, they were more inclined to guard space. In 2009/10 Harvs oversaw a number of attacking young players introduction to the side like Ballas, Mayne, Fyfe, Morabito, Palmer, Suban, Deboer, Walters and even SCOS who loved to tackle and approach their opponent with the ball. They shut down their opponents quickly and pressured the disposal forcing each possession to come under more and more pressure.

Harvs embraced these qualities and the whole squad applied the same attitude. It worked well and most journalists were speaking of the tactic as original and new, something specific to Freo's style of play at the time.
Nathan: When did you get balls?
Simon: I've always had balls you've just never seen them.
Nathan: That's the gayest thing I've ever heard.
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Bizkit Coach Lyon 7 years 11 months ago #94

Bizkit


Damn I miss those jumpers.
Nathan: When did you get balls?
Simon: I've always had balls you've just never seen them.
Nathan: That's the gayest thing I've ever heard.
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Dockermus Coach Lyon 7 years 11 months ago #95

Dockermus
I miss that damned hard-at-it commitment. But I really don't miss the anchor.
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Derby12 Coach Lyon 7 years 11 months ago #96

Derby12
I miss the champagne footy played by attacking, exciting players that generated spontaneous mexican waves around Subi that started early in the last quarter and went to the end of the game as Hill and co carved sides up.

I know there is an element of rose coloured glasses and all that there, but I haven't been part of many of them in the Lyon era. I always said I'd trade that for a premiership because our first is so important. However, watching the Giants as they enter their deliberately constructed era of dominance, and looking at our list as it stands, I can't help feeling a little cheated now.
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FD1016 Coach Lyon 7 years 11 months ago #97

FD1016
I miss Roger...
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freofan61 Coach Lyon 7 years 11 months ago #98

freofan61


My favourite.

Such an exciting era, we believed we could be anything and that it was the start of something special.
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