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TOPIC: The New Game Plan Excuse

Derby12 The New Game Plan Excuse 8 years 3 weeks ago #57

Derby12
If we don't have the cattle then we have to blame the recruiters. End of story.,

The current bunch have had plenty of time to get it right, but on the balance, for whatever reason, they have failed. Now we can go with the nihilistic view that we will never ever get good players to play for us because we live in some godforsaken AFL wasteland, or we can be a bit assertive and:

i) draft local (something we have not done well previously)
ii) target WA expats (something we have not done well previously)
iii) spend some big $$ buying a football department with gun recruiters and assistant coaches/mentors/waterboys with links to potential source clubs.

We had the $$ to buy the (arguably) best coach at the time, and there's no salary cap on the footy department, so why not spend some serious cash and buy some guys who do have the network and experience to get people to the trade table, and identify disgruntled talent at their previous clubs. Why haven't we got an Eade, a McKenna, a Chocko etc etc on our payroll. It's not like we're going to be getting any players from Hawthorn in the near future. Get a bunch of guys with direct relationships with current players and also existing footy departments at other clubs, and then trade aggressively, for once.

All the pain and all the dollars expended on getting Lyon to Freo will be for nought if the club can't provide him with the list he needs - whatever the style he imposes - to win a premiership.

For mine, we needed to target some positions a bit more strategically than simply hiring a couple of bunkie ex-Hawthorn players to magically transform our game style.

Morgan, now is the time to say that you genuinely believe that Bond is the best Footy Manager in the country. Otherwise, we are just saving money and accepting mediocrity, right?
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Fre_DOh The New Game Plan Excuse 8 years 3 weeks ago #58

Fre_DOh
Derby12, you can't go any higher than no. 1.

In 2014 we had the highest football department spend in the league.

au.sports.yahoo.com/afl/a/27913568/afl-f...ng-figures-revealed/

Top men don't come cheap.

Keep paying that GF upgrade and whatever you do, don't forget to buy those raffle tickets.
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DockerKnockers said You Beaut

Morgan The New Game Plan Excuse 8 years 3 weeks ago #59

Morgan
I have no idea whether Bond is the best football manager in the country. My guess is he isn't. But if we use your logic - that it can only be assessed by on-field results - he's been at least a top-4 candidate in an 18 team league. I think our prospects of poaching one of the other top 4 candidates is slim.

Of course, it's nonsense to equate footy manager performance exactly to wins / losses. It doesn't account for differences between club resources and advantages, coaching ability, lists they inherited, draft and salary cap rules, injuries and plain old luck. But it's not nearly as fun or easy to judge a footy manager on the merits of their actual decisions, because that requires a lot of work, and for the most part, we don't have all the information that fed into the decision. Was taking Josh Simpson a good choice that didn't work out, or bad planning? Was picking Nat Fyfe excellent drafting or dumb luck?

I do know we have had very few players leave, or even threaten to leave, or put off contract negotiations, had no issues with the salary cap, we've re-signed young players when they were cheap (see Hill and Son Son) and we signed Nat Fyfe for the same money as NicNat. Continuity is dull, but we've had it. We haven't landed the big fish, but none of ours have left either.

As for throwing money at the problem, if financial resources was what produced results, Collingwood would win every season, and we would finish 9th.

Blaming footy managers for wins and losses is like blaming the Government for unemployment. Sometimes it's poor economic management, and sometimes a Government makes sound decisions, but are fighting prevailing conditions outside of their control.

I don't know which Bond is, and I don't know how anyone from the outside the club could.
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goodie, Raglan Matt, DockerKnockers said You Beaut

Derby12 The New Game Plan Excuse 8 years 3 weeks ago #60

Derby12
Thanks Fre_Doh - I was unaware of that. Wow - (sticking with the time honoured tradition of roman numerals)
i) I am speechless
ii) that figure is for the whole department including players and it is unclear how much of that is Coach's (Roly's) payments - but you'd assume that Clarkson would be on a good wicket too and Hawks are $2m behind us ...
iii) Bond and his team are overpaid.
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The_Yeti The New Game Plan Excuse 8 years 3 weeks ago #61

The_Yeti
Well basing Bond's value on what the players and coaches achieve on the field is like juding my technical skills by looking at what other members of my team can achieve.

Bond is an off field factor. Judge him by HE does off field.

His deficiencies then become a little clearer.

1. He is limited in his recruiting outlook. Thats been the subject of discussion for many years. its not new. He doesnt adequately plan for the future in that we need to pick players for a balanced team not midfielders because 'they are the best players available'

KPPs take longer to develop. They are longer term projects and many will fail. So we need to devote more resources in identifying and developing them. Bond is no more or less gifting in reading the future than most but he doesnt recruit well for a balanced side.

Thats been made obvious by our current deficiencies

2. Bond's management of trading has been poor. If you refuse to offer something then you'll get nothing back and apart from Sylvia, we've got nothing back. In fact, even with Sylvia we got nothing. He farted around and we missed Clarke who absolutely wanted to come here. That was a lucky miss but hardly any credit to Bond.

3. Bond's management of our relations with the MRP and Tribunal are appalling and I've been saying that for years. Other clubs have had a more aggressive approach and have always fared better. Under Bond our name is often pronounced pleamantle because of the way we roll over and take it

3 three clear areas where Bond has been an underperformer

edit: Needs more Roman numerals...mea culpa
Egurls Suck!
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Derby12 The New Game Plan Excuse 8 years 3 weeks ago #62

Derby12
Yeah, nah.

IF you accept that our list is not up to scratch, then there is a group who's job it is to build and maintain that list, and they have to take responsibility if the list falls short. I think you're saying that because we have finished in the top 4 lately, they have done their job. I would respond by saying that as the key players from the previous watch fade from the list, so our chances of a premiership fade away. Life without Elvis is bleak. We will get a chance to see what life without Sandy will be like. And Pav was superb on Saturday night. No-one expects to replace 3 champions, but I reckon you have to try. And we simply haven't.

If you would like to argue that our squad this year is as strong or stronger than it was 2 or 3 years ago, go right ahead. I reckon you will struggle with that one, but I welcome the discussion. Then project that list without 211, Pav & Johnno. I think our list is getting weaker, and will continue to do so unless we - against all previous form - pull several rabbits out of the hat and secure 2 at least of Hooker, McCarthy & Hogan. Meanwhile, we are clearly paying our list top dollar, and still have to secure Neale (I believe?) and also find the $$ to pay for/lure the big names previously mentioned.

So if the list is getting weaker, who are you going to hold responsible for that? Circumstances? Luck? The global anti-Fremantle Trading Conspiracy? Or the department within the club with are directly tasked with not letting that happen?

As an aside, I find it harder to count injuries as bad luck when half the guys we draft or trade come over injured or have a history of injury problems.
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Raglan Matt The New Game Plan Excuse 8 years 3 weeks ago #63

Raglan Matt
The last couple of times Sandi was out for an extended period of time , those second string strugglers we have as backup ruckman performed well above expectations, even when we got down to 3rd and 4th choice ruckman. As for Elvis, the new Springsteen (A Pearce) will step up to the mark pretty quick if he is allowed to settle in across half back while Johnno is still around to direct traffic. Ibbo showed signs on Saturday that he is not a lost cause.

Get Tabs in for Mayne, Bennell in a few weeks and give a go to a couple more young guns and things will look a bit brighter. Mora and Yarran are the chocolate topping on the ice cream. We may be lucky enough to get a taste, but it is not guaranteed.
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rocky333 The New Game Plan Excuse 8 years 3 weeks ago #64

rocky333
why does a team need a game plan?ggez how hard is it to get the ball out of the centre,down to you forwards and get goals,why make a very simple game hard by complicating it? players aren't very bright are they,just look at the spack
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Raglan Matt The New Game Plan Excuse 8 years 3 weeks ago #65

Raglan Matt
Good point Rocky, if we don't understand what we are doing or why, then all the geniuses in the world aren't going to understand it. If they don't know what they are trying to counter, then they cant counter it.George W Bushes knowns and unknowns and known unknowns and unknown knowns theory simplified to the nth degree. Get to it Bond and make it work.
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Morgan The New Game Plan Excuse 8 years 3 weeks ago #66

Morgan
You raise and interesting (almost) philosophical point. If a list manager doesn't deliver a premiership, should they be sacked? As they say, football is a tough industry (btw, I hate the word industry applied to football), so it's not an uncommon thought.

Freo had a plan to win a premiership, but it didn't work. Does that mean it was a bad plan? Does that mean that those who formulated the plan should be fired? It's pretty simplistic to say, categorically, yes.

Freo's stars were clustered at two ends - the old greats (Pav, McPharlin, Mundy and Sandi for example), and the next greats (Fyfe, Walters, Hill). As yeti points out, everyone knew our time was running out with the old guys, and we didn't have anyone to replace them. Also, as yeti points out, developing KPP's takes time, and you need to get games into them.

Yeti's view - and I'm sure he'll correct me if I'm verballing him - seems to be that we should have drafted talls to address our glaring future shortfall (putting aside we did draft players like Apeness and A Pearce). But drafting game-changing talls in the high teens is really, really difficult. I'm not sure which one slipped through the cracks, though names like Kersten are thrown around. He'd probably be handy, but he's hardly an All-Australian, and wasn't at the time when our old guys could still contribute.

Bond and co's strategy was no secret. Draft best available, and try use the fact our best players were on veterans salaries (i.e., not all counted against the cap) to get a marquee free agent or two. That way, they could contribute while we still had the rest of our veterans. For Bond, it was actually a big swing.

To me, that is a cogent plan, with eyes towards a premiership. We just didn't execute. We threw bags of money at people (reportedly), and we didn't land a Cloke (thankfully) or a Rance, or a J Rewoldt. Fair enough if you think it's a bad plan, but given how hard it is to win a premiership, I think it gave us a better chance than trying to pluck a premiership KPP teenager from relative obscurity.

So, it didn't work. But, presumably the admin and the coach signed off on the plan. If you held the view that was the best course, do you sack Bond because it didn't work out? Some would say yes - it was his job to execute it. But landing a big free agent always had elements outside of Freo's control, the way drafting does. No-one could foresee, for example, Pitt's heart condition, or Morabito's knees. If the admin's view was that Bond's work in executing the plan was good, but the results didn't fall our way, then sacking him seems pretty reactionary. Perhaps keeping him would be accepting mediocrity, but there are pitfalls in being too reactionary as well.

As for his trades, we have no idea what he explored, and what he offered. As a general rule, football managers don't tell the media which Freo player was offered up. It tends to be bad for morale to tell a player he was shopped all around town, but please, if you wouldn't mind sacrificing for the team on / off the field, that would be great. As someone who negotiates for a living, unless you are in the room, you have little idea which side is responsible for not getting a deal done.

One thing we can agree on is the MRP stuff. I'm pretty sure a chocolate wheel could outperform Bond on that one.
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goodie, DockerKnockers said You Beaut

Corporal Agarn The New Game Plan Excuse 8 years 3 weeks ago #67

Corporal Agarn
I hate that draft the best possible line. Every year the best possible are midfielders, basically because there are so many of them.
Do other clubs live by that motto which in our case really means draft someone even though you've got plenty of similar people and don't need any more?
Can you imagine that approach in the business world? We're building a house at the moment and need a good carpenter, but there are heaps of good bricklayers around so we should go for them instead.
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Morgan The New Game Plan Excuse 8 years 3 weeks ago #68

Morgan
Most teams aren't drafting their first pick consistently in the high teens. Remind me, which are the best KPPs drafted by Hawthorn, Geelong and Sydney in the last five years?
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Corporal Agarn The New Game Plan Excuse 8 years 3 weeks ago #69

Corporal Agarn
Remind me of a basketball team that drafted an excessive amount of point guards when they needed power forwards.

Remind me of a rugby team that drafted an excessive amount of flankers when they needed scrum halfs.

Remind me of a soccer team that drafted an excessive amount of midfielders when they needed goalkeepers.

Remind me of an NFL team that recruited an excessive amount of quarterbacks when they needed line backers.
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The_Yeti said You Beaut

Flag_2005 The New Game Plan Excuse 8 years 3 weeks ago #70

Flag_2005
To properly answer your question Morgan, there aren't any.
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