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TOPIC: Bed Time

Drubbing Bed Time 3 months 4 weeks ago #15

I think its largely generational. Having eradicated most nasty communicable disease, we have 2 generations that haven't seen what a pre vax world of epidemics, infant mortality, childhood disease and poor life expectancy looked like.

Poor medical understanding and national vax programs provide an invisible security which has been taken for granted by those who don't vax.

Working in Pathology, Measles was a big issue for us, til covid. Too many GPs lazy and send suspect patients to collection rooms for testing, against public heath directives.

These people go unvaxxed to Asia where measles is still rife, because... no national vaccine programs.
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Corporal Agarn said You Beaut

Mushroom Bed Time 3 months 4 weeks ago #16

It's selfish in the extreme.

Thinking you are above a career in a team environment.

Mostly thinking that you are more important than everyone else and what you do doesn't matter to everyone else. Including the hands all through the supply chain that feed you.
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Corporal Agarn Bed Time 3 months 4 weeks ago #17

Corporal Agarn
Plus Kelly has only just had his first shot. Am I right in thinking that you have to have had two before you can play and it's a three month wait between them?
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Docker by the Sea Bed Time 3 months 4 weeks ago #18

Docker by the Sea
The Melbourne Institute has some data about age and vaccine hesitancy it’s highest in 15-44 year olds, about 7.6% unwilling to be vaccinated from memory. Followed by 44-64 year olds 6.2%. Those over 65 lowest at 2.5%. These numbers may not be correct to the decimal point but from my memory. I was surprised that there didn’t appear to be huge difference between males and females. I assumed males would’ve been more resistant.
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Dockermus Bed Time 3 months 4 weeks ago #19

He’s a WCE footy player, so I wouldn’t be attributing any deep thinking or commitment to the anti-vaxx protests. He’s probably just waiting for a vaccine that can be snorted.
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Quasimodo Bed Time 3 months 4 weeks ago #20

Self entitled idiot.

Vindicates why 17 clubs overlooked him in the draft. He’s always been a knob.
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Noddy Bed Time 3 months 4 weeks ago #21

It’s a similar thing to what appears a lot of young folk don’t see the need to join a union, but don’t realise a lot of the conditions they work under are in place because people took a stand together to address issues.
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Walter the baker Bed Time 3 months 4 weeks ago #22

Walter the baker
Nissy’s head must be spinning. A few years ago he had players who loved their drugs and would even break the law and falsified prescriptions to get medicines, now he has players who are refusing to take medicine that they are fully entitled to. I hope he can make sense of it all because none of it makes sense to those outside the Eagles.
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Morgan Bed Time 3 months 4 weeks ago #23

Hypen, I’ve been discussing this a lot with some anti-vax friends to try and understand their thinking. The first thing I’ll say is that there isn’t a single reason or thought process for why people don’t want to get vaccinated, but there are a few different themes, and my anti-vax friends have taken some or all of these on. None of these seem like necessary or sufficient reasons to not get vaccinated, but I think once a few take hold then there’s a tipping point.

Alternatively people instinctively/emotionally form an anti-vax view and these are some of the bases upon which they defend it.

I’ve listed these in descending order of (what I would consider) plausibility.

i. Distrust of ‘Big Pharma’: A lot of people don’t trust pharmaceutical companies, and so they don’t want to inject one of their products into their body. Companies like Pfizer have in the past given people reason to distrust them, so I have more sympathy for this position than the others. This ties a little into point ii.

ii. Unknown side-effects of the vaccines: COVID vaccinations were developed at incredible speeds. While I might see that as a testament to modern science, some are worried there could be long-term side effects or that the trials were insufficient.

iii. COVID isn’t as bad as is being made out: You’ll see a lot of COVID misinformation that suggests COVID isn’t particularly lethal, and therefore the thought is the responses to it, including vaccine mandates, are overblown. When coupled with points i and ii, some people start to consider the risks of the vaccine start to outweigh be protective benefits.

iv. Preference for ‘herd’ immunity:There are a subset of anti-vaxxers who consider that nature should take its course, and that by vaccinating ourselves we aren’t giving ourselves the chance for our bodies to adapt. This seems like nonsense to me, but there is a huge wellness industry predicated on the idea that your body is a perfect vessel that just needs tweaking with yoga, herbs and essential oils so I guess if you believe that then this might sound plausible.

v. Distrust of Government: This is huge reason, but has a few sub-branches. The most-plausible concern is that the Government is too cosy with pharmaceutical companies or incompetent to properly regulate the vaccines. Next is a component that the Government shouldn’t be mandating vaccines. This isn’t a reason not to have a vaccine per se, but it does seem to entrench views in an existing anit-vaxxer and motivate the resistence to them. Then there are plenty of conspiracy theories about the Government manipulating (and on some views creating) the conditions to more heavily regulate humankind for some nefarious reason.

Trying to reason with people who hold a number of these views is challenging because it’s a little like shifting sands. If I could summarise the general view, I don’t think there is an ‘anti-vax position’, but rather a sentiment that ‘whatever we’re being told is wrong/isn’t the full story’. The problem with that is they don’t feel the need to articulate their own view as to what ‘the real story’ is. You could knock down one pillar of their arguments, but another will spring up.

Sadly for some, being anti-vax has become a key part of their self-perception. They see resisting vaccines as a cause and they are standing on principle (this is especially strong when the primary basis of the arguments are a combination of ‘freedom of choice/tyranny of Government’ themes). It becomes very difficult for people to give that up.

Anyway, that’s just my best explanation. I’m sure there are better explanations out there.
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hypen Bed Time 3 months 4 weeks ago #24

Thanks Morgan.

What is most depressing about this whole deal is that yes, to the individual Covid is a relatively mild risk (I know it can be fatal just applying probability to it its not a massive risk to a single person),but to society the risk is catastrophic. A first world country without a functioning hospital system is terrifying.

One common theme Morgan is everything is fed through the lens of the individual.
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Dockermus Bed Time 3 months 4 weeks ago #25

So don’t argue, just let them get on with catching Covid; maybe they can prove the majority wrong.
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Morgan Bed Time 3 months 4 weeks ago #26

Doubtless there is some of that individualism Hypen – maybe a lot – but I think some people genuinely think they are standing up to tyranny and are actually willing to make personal sacrifices to do so. I think its bonkers, but they consider it a very principled position and somehow for the greater good.
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Drubbing Bed Time 3 months 4 weeks ago #27

Morgan, those are furphys, related to ignorance, self imposed or otherwise.

People can find plenty of credible, accurate information - pro and cons about Pharma, find out exactly how these vaxes were developed so quickly (tip, 20 years of SARS and MERS research and a shedload of global money....) if you look properly.

But they don't. They 'do their own research' and go to their biased echo chambers to reinforce their ignorance. They are unable to process the complexities of life and science and need to simplify things they don't like, or can't grasp. Paranoid conspiracy works well for simplicity. Simple explanations make them feel they worked something out. Despite none of it making sense.

None of their arguments are rational or have any basis in science. They don't deal in reason. They go with the vibe of the thing, hearsay, experts that aren't, and anything that has no recognised credibility.
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Morgan Bed Time 3 months 4 weeks ago #28

I agree it's all nonsense Drubbing, but Hypen asked what anti-vaxxers were thinking and I was just relaying the sentiments of the anit-vaxxers I know.

I'll admit I’m a little uncomfortable with public policy that effectively excludes unvaccinated people from much of society, but I understand the desire to protect our hospital staff and vulnerable groups from the waves of COVID patients who are disproportionately unvaccinated.

With that in mind, I’d like to suggest an alternative. Unvaccinated people can still go to pubs, but can’t go to regular hospitals. Instead, they are free to attend hospitals entirely dedicated to unvaccinated people, which have all the medical equipment, beds and medicines of a normal hospital (including hydroxychloroquine and ivermectin) but instead of being staffed by doctors and nurses, they just have a giant sign on arrival that says ‘DO YOUR OWN RESEARCH!’
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