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TOPIC: Lip service perhaps?

The_Yeti Lip service perhaps? 6 years 11 months ago #57

The_Yeti
Again Morgan, you prove my point.

You ignore the factual material that doesn't suit your case and raise strawman arguments instead of dealing with factual material.

It is a fact that Margetts was Cox's best man. A fact acknowledged by Cox and Margetts. Its not a secret and its not mere speculation. If you cannot see the conflict of interest there then it would be pointless trying to have an intelligent discussion with you. Clearly, facts won't change your closed mind.

Fisher's distaste for Lyon is also a matter of public record. Google is your friend here...actyually Google will do you no favours. You can also Google Fisher's record when umpiring St Kilda games. Another conflict of interest that you will happily pretend doesn't exist.
Egurls Suck!
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freoval, point less, okeedokee said You Beaut

rogerrocks Lip service perhaps? 6 years 11 months ago #58

rogerrocks
RM, you give the data:
Free kicks on the weekend in games played in Perth. Game 1 home team 19 free kicks; away team 16 freekicks: Game 2 home team 14 free kicks; away team 21 free kicks.

So looking at it, home teams 33 frees, away teams 37 frees. This is not statistical proof of anything, but it lends weight to the argument that there is no home town bias at Subi oval.
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Morgan Lip service perhaps? 6 years 11 months ago #59

Morgan
I'm not ignoring it, I just don't know how it affects their umpiring. Certainly the AFL would do well to avoid the perception of bias. That's different from actually being biased.

But, as I said, that's two umpires out of 30-odd.

But if your view is that you can't examine something objectively if you have a personal view about a team (or a player on one team, or their coach), don't you think it's an odd position to say that as a passionate fan, you can identify completely objectively when something is a free kick, but an umpire - the overwhelming majority have no relationship with either team - cannot?

EDIT: Yeti, any chance of a link to the Fisher hates Freo stuff, and that Margetts was Cox's best man? Out of curiosity, i looked into it, but nothing came up.
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RideoftheVagaries Lip service perhaps? 6 years 11 months ago #60

RideoftheVagaries
Morgan, backing up a bit, were you trying to say that an umpire wouldn’t give a thought to a team they are about to umpire? And even if there was nothing but a void in their brain where a Freo slot might be, you can find no shortage of chatter around the AFL media circus with a negative message or two about Freo-Lyon-Ballas-Crowley, even Fyfe to fill that space up (vs the beginning of the year where there was actually quite a bit of positivity about Freo). So plenty of opportunity to have a systematic bias ferment (harking back to the unconscious bias thing, it’s pretty much how it works).
;p
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rogerrocks Lip service perhaps? 6 years 11 months ago #61

rogerrocks
Anyway, should we make the GF, I trust the AFL has enough Victorian bias that they don't give us any WA umpires.
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Morgan Lip service perhaps? 6 years 11 months ago #62

Morgan
I agree there can be unconscious bias, but with 30-odd umpires I just think that the range of conflicting biases, it probably wouldn't explain any discrepancy. But yes, certainly with some umpires it could have an effect.

But take Ray Chamberlain. To me, he strikes me as an umpire that is so determined not to be influenced by the crowd, he actually seems to favour the away team. I'd much rather have him for an away game than a home game.

Or Dalgleish. It really does seem that he loves giving the Eagles free kicks.

Or that Foot muppet, who just loves paying everything he sees.

There are umpires of a range of ability, quirks and biases. But with three umpires on the ground, and 30-odd in total, I just think it mostly washes out.

Also, I know I see more free kicks to Freo than are there, because I'm a Freo fan and that's how it works.

As a team, if one decision each game goes the other way, we would have won 50% of the free kicks paid.

As a group, the umpires would come together and examine the game. Someone from Freo would be on the phone some weeks. It seems more likely to me that Freo fans are more biased towards Freo than the umpires are against. But that's just me.
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Bizkit said You Beaut

RideoftheVagaries Lip service perhaps? 6 years 11 months ago #63

RideoftheVagaries
It's there for any number of clubs, smaller clubs cop it against the bigger clubs all the time.
;p
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Drubbing Lip service perhaps? 6 years 11 months ago #64

Drubbing
Morgan, there might be 30 odd umpires, but in the role call of regular Freo duty the same names come up

Chamberlain, Stevic, Margets (WA) Fisher and Dalgleish (WA).

The fact we know these blokes names, and hardly any of the other 25, says something about the way they umpire, and the rostering of umpires in general.
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Raglan Matt, werdnarewop said You Beaut

Morgan Lip service perhaps? 6 years 11 months ago #65

Morgan
That’s not really correct Drubbing. We’ve had 25 umpires this year. Dalgleish (very ordinary) and Rosebury (very good) officiated the most Freo games. Followed by Famer and Ryan (who I think are both very good). Magetts came in fifth, with a pretty even distribution for the remaining 20 umps.

So it’s just not correct to say that we regularly see Chamberlain, Stevic and Fisher. I suspect you just notice them when they are umpiring because you don’t like them.

Getting Dalgleish and Margetts so often might be a concern, (Dalgleigh in particular I don’t rate) but seeing as they are from WA, I can see the AFL’s rationale. The players don’t like flying interstate every second week, and they get paid a lot more than the umpires.

Dalgleish 7
Rosebury 7

Farmer 6
Ryan 6

Margetts 5

Chamberlain 3
Findlay 3
Hosking 3
McInerney 3
Meredith 3
O’Gornan 3

Fisher 2
Kamolins 2
Mitchell 2
Mollison 2
Stevic 2
Pannell 2

Armstrong
Bannister
Brown
Donlon
Foot
Jeffery
Nicholls
Schmitt
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DockerKnockers Lip service perhaps? 6 years 11 months ago #66

DockerKnockers
Rosebury hasn't been very good for Freo. I regularly see him make some obvious shockers against Freo. Eg. McPharlin/Buddy 50m goal 2013 GF.

I will provide more details later on him.But from memory, I'm pretty sure WC rarely get him. We get him often in the big games and he does us no favours.
Gone to bigfooty where there's fewer Docker Haters.
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Raglan Matt said You Beaut

ChewyBoot Lip service perhaps? 6 years 11 months ago #67

ChewyBoot
I'm a bit off topic here, but, never mind umpires who get games because they can bounce the ball, as I think some umpires have trouble consistently throwing the ball up properly too. I keep seeing an increasing number of slack ball ups around the ground. The umpy usually holds the ball in one hand and rather that it going straight up at a reasonable height of a few of metres or so, the ball is just lobbed towards one of the two ruckmen, barely above head height. Its pathetic.

I heard the other day that currently the best bouncing umpire in the AFL is Matthew Nicholls. This the bloke who showed how keen he was to bounce the ball even after the final siren had gone. (Round 5, 2006 St Kilda vs Fremantle, Tasmania.)
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Raglan Matt said You Beaut

DockerKnockers Lip service perhaps? 6 years 11 months ago #68

DockerKnockers
Morgan, stats regarding Rosebury that I didn't have available earlier;

Rosebury, has umpired 11 Freo games from 2014 to current.
3 of them ended with Freo having positive Free Kicks, 8 negative.
Out of the 8 games with negative Free kicks, Freo won 1, lost 7.
(NB: Freo's record for 2014-current is: P:47 W:34 L:13.)
Rosebury has umpired Freo in 2015 7 times for 3 positive Free Kicks, 4 negative.
Freo won the first three games, all with postive Free Kicks in round 2, 4 & 6. Since then Freo lost 3 of those 4 negative free kick games, the other was a 7 point win over Gold Coast R11 (very close to a big upset).
In 2014, Rosebury umpired 4 Freo games, we lost all 4 and we had negative free kicks in all four.

(NB: West coast have not had Rosebury for any games in 2015. In 2014 they had him 4 times, they lost 4 times, but did still win the free kick count in 3 of those 4 games.)
Gone to bigfooty where there's fewer Docker Haters.
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RideoftheVagaries Lip service perhaps? 6 years 11 months ago #69

RideoftheVagaries
You know, the stats that might really be telling are those that are broken up by the type of frees given. I wonder if there is any way to get those?
;p
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werdnarewop said You Beaut

Raglan Matt Lip service perhaps? 6 years 11 months ago #70

Raglan Matt
The stat I would like to see , one which used to be available, is a quarter by quarter breakdown of free kicks.
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rogerrocks said You Beaut