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TOPIC: Lip service perhaps?

The_Yeti Lip service perhaps? 6 years 11 months ago #43

The_Yeti
Thats completely untrue, Morgan.

Its more a case that you ignore the bits that don't suit your argument and then claim there is no evidence. There is plenty of direct evidence that certain umpires officiate the game inconsistently.

You've also stated that you can see where Campbell is coming from. I do not. If Campbell is serious in his comments he should be sacked for incompetence.

He stated that he does not know why the the free kick stats are so skewed in favour of particular teams, including his former club. Its his job to know. He is responsible for the umpiring. If he does not know why the stats are so skewed then how can he know whether his umpires are honest or bent?

He needs to know why the stats are the way they are so that his responsibilities are being met. If the free kicks are being judged correctly in almost all of the cases then he needs to be able to point to the evidence that supports that. Saying I don't know is basically saying I am not doing my job.

Your earlier comments about home town umpiring are equally wrong. Some teams, perhaps unfashionable teams, are consistently on wrong side of interpretations whether at home or away. The stats show your argument to be without merit.

If you were serious about 'drawing out more compelling evidence' as you claim, perhaps you could start by not ignoring most of it.
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Morgan Lip service perhaps? 6 years 11 months ago #44

Morgan
I'm just postulating a theory: that we don't duck and play for free kicks as often, so we receive fewer of them, and because of the way we play we give more away. That's all it is, a theory.

Another theory is that the umpires are biased against Freo.

A further theory is that there is a conspiracy against Freo.

They are all just theories without any real evidence. It could be combination of things. Free kick numbers don't distinguish between the theories. One-off decisions don't distinguish between them, no matter how often they are trotted out.

To figure out which theory gives the best explanation you'd need to go through a game-by-game, decision-by-decision analysis. None of us are going to do that. Even if you did, you couldn't be sure because every decision is so bloody subjective.

The only people who would do comprehensive analysis are the umpires. Now, given their jobs and reputations are more scrutinised by the general public that the prime minister's, I'd imagine they'd be disinclined to deliberately sabotage themselves by cheating.

That Campbell didn't give a wide-ranging and detailed answer in a radio interview has about as much relevance as Roly not giving away Freo secrets in a similar interview.

So, it's fine if you don't agree with my theory....because I can't prove it. At the same time, I just don't think you can present your bias/incompetence/conspiracy theories as fact. And yet they are. Constantly. Unceasingly.

Bias is just a theory, shared by every single supporter base in the AFL. They can't all be right.
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DockerKnockers Lip service perhaps? 6 years 11 months ago #45

DockerKnockers
docker1940, the umpire clearly calls holding the ball. The laws make allowance for play on to be allowed when no prior opportunity and the ball is spilt during the tackle. Technically, the Fyfe one falls in a grey area between those laws, and incorrect disposal.
Generally, the umpires let the spilt ball when no prior go, otherwise in wet conditions there would be 100+ Free Kicks for the game.
BTW, that was Fyfe's first Free Against, his second was when he was held out of the marking contest in the forward pocket and McVeigh marked it.
Gone to bigfooty where there's fewer Docker Haters.
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Cis4Cookie Lip service perhaps? 6 years 11 months ago #46

Cis4Cookie
Just be thankful we aren't playing this week. Umpires for Sydney v North: Margetts, Dalgleish, Stevic.

Shudder.
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Drubbing Lip service perhaps? 6 years 11 months ago #47

Drubbing
I don't need theories to see for myself that Chamberlain and Dagleish are crap umpires. Consistently crap when we get them. I can't speak for how crap they are in other games.

But when you simply cannot get near break even with Dalgleish, and only remain in the negative, something stinks. It's like they're not even bothering to hide their bias because bosses like Campbell aren't ever going to even bring the skewed numbers up.

From a purely anecdotal standpoint, I don't think Freo scrag or contact opponents high any more than any other team. Which is probably what most frees are paid for. Yet the numbers suggest the opposite.

It's clear Freo don't stage frees like WC or Geelong. How are Geelong's frees for, are they up there with WC?

If Freo were 'getting their share' of frees, whatever that is, you'd expect, if we give too many away, that Freo games would have a higher than average frees paid than other games . I don't think they do, unless someone has stats to show otherwise.
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RideoftheVagaries Lip service perhaps? 6 years 11 months ago #48

RideoftheVagaries
Morgan I think your statement that the decisions are so darn subjective, is the perfect exhibit A in the "they just don't like us" theory. That and the decisions are made on the run, under time pressure and all sorts of other pressures, in a highly emotionally charged environment. You could throw in the generally negative press that surrounds Freo, that we're an unfashionable club (not as unfashionable as Port's merchandise, but still on the fringes). And you'd surmise it's got to have an effect in the backs of the minds of the umpires. Anyone who understand the role of unconscious bias could see that's a pretty good combination.
;p
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The_Yeti Lip service perhaps? 6 years 11 months ago #49

The_Yeti
I haven't heard anybody say there is a conspiracy against Freo so lets just disregard the strawman arguments, they add nothing to the discussion except to reduce the credibility of your position.

As for the bias arguments, there is evidence supporting bias for and against different teams in the AFL and the stats are part of that supporting evidence. The inconsistent judgements being made by the same umpires in the same game lend credibility to those arguments. The same umpire that allowed Pyke to steamroller Fyfe from behind without let or hindrance was the same umpire that couldn't 'see' Sandi take a clear mark in the last quarter but perhaps he was just having a bad day.

Like Margetts has consistently had bad days when umpires eagles games and the fact that he was best man at an eagles player's wedding is just a coincidence. Or the fact that Fisher has almost never paid a fee kick to Freo is just coincidental to Roly retiring the guy.

The fact that Campbell has consistently allowed umpires with known conflicts of interest to umpire games is also evidence that things are not being handled with integrity. Even cricket arrived at the conclusion that independent umpires were mandatory and introduced a review system on top of that measure indicates what should be the minimum standards yet the AFL falls well short.

In any other field such conflicts of interest run the risk of criminal sanctions yet not in the AFL it seems.

I would agree that we don't duck, shoulder shrug, throw heads back or any that crap that the eagles specialise in but that doesn't account for different interpretations for different teams. It doesn't account for repeated and long standing conflicts of interest in how the MRP is run or the Tribunal.

It doesnt count for the radically different interpretations in the MRP, which is not a spur of the moment decision making environment. Look at the way the head is supposed to be protected and then look at the decisions made when Freo players are involved.

Witness Pav being hit in the head by a shoulder charge two paces after completing a mark in the Bullies game this year. It was written off as an accidental clash in a marking contest (no, really!) yet Fyfe gets pinged for an accidental head knock when trying to spoil. Thats just a single example of the inconsistencies that exist. Pav was out of that game through concussion along with Walters and both head clashes were written off by the MRP through very spurious reasoning. No head is sacrosanct malarkey there was there.

Until you can justify the inconsistent interpretations and the repeated conflicts of interest then your dismissal of people's claim of potentially improper conduct have little or no merit.
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DockerKnockers Lip service perhaps? 6 years 11 months ago #50

DockerKnockers
Drubbing, in Freo games the average Frees For + Frees Against are typically less than for other teams like Richmond, or Brisbane Lions.
Gone to bigfooty where there's fewer Docker Haters.
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Morgan Lip service perhaps? 6 years 11 months ago #51

Morgan
Yeti, please. People are alleging a conspiracy all the time. The 'AFL wants a Victorian Grand Final', 'they look after Sydney' etc. Even your allegations of known, unaddressed incompetence and conflicts borders on conspiratorial.

I have no argument with free kick counts and inconsistent decisions being considered evidence of bias, but it's being presented as strong evidence, when it is actually really weak. Inconsistent decisions are are more likely a product of it being a really difficult game to umpire, poor sight lines, etc. How often have you gone nuts about a decision, then seen another angle and realised it was actually a good call? Or gone crook at a game, seen the reply and gone 'oh, so that what it's for'.

As for the conflicts, I can't speak to the Margetts one - I don't know the backstory. But again, you are presenting things as fact when in fact they are mere speculation. Do we know Fischer hates Roly, and wants to see Freo do poorly? You've assumed there is some link between perceived free kick counts and his relationship with Roly (revenge motivation), but that is wild speculation. Most people who are coached by Roly speak well of him. Have you heard Fisher speak otherwise? But that's two out of 30 umpires.

Richmond got a pretty good rub of the green statistically, but will remember this season for one free kick that wasn't paid. Like i said, anecdotal examples of bad decisions are close to meaningless. You'd be a smart enough man to understand confirmation bias. If footy umpiring wasn't a perfect storm for that, I don't know what is.

And ROTV, yes, I do understand unconscious bias, but to have an negative influence on a systemic level that bias would have to be shared. There's no real basis for most umpires to share that view of Freo. In fact, most of those based outside of WA would never really consider us at all. It could explain individual cases though. Dalgleish comes to mind.

A place like Dockerland is a great place to come and vent about umpires and make unfounded allegations of bias. It's all part of the fun, and perhaps it's uncharitable of me to argue otherwise. I know I'm not going to change anyone's mind, I think it's important for people to know that not everyone shares their view about it. Because you know when you hear a fan of another team complaining about umpires how you roll your eyes, there's a reason for that. It's because deep down you know they're talking nonsense.
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Noddy Lip service perhaps? 6 years 11 months ago #52

Noddy
In the case of the WCE, yes, talking nonsense....now why would that be?
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thegeniusthatis Lip service perhaps? 6 years 11 months ago #53

thegeniusthatis
In 2014 WC didn't win that many games, yet to win every free kick count where Dalgleish officiated is truly questionable.
Yes, perhaps the way we play results in giving away frees, but a lot of other clubs have emulated our style of play without consequence.
Sandi deserves a free for being scragged mercilessly, having his arms repeatedly chopped in marking contests, as opposition players cannot cope with his size through legal means, but they are allowed away with it, and in fact Sandi is now giving free kicks away as we are still winning.
It issuing to get worse before it gets better.
Campbell is next to useless. Data needs to be explained. You can't just say "stuff happens". As a teacher i need to explain statistical anomalies to justify my role as an educator. Campbell is accountable.
I hate the Toilet with a passion that borders on the irrational, and i am very proud of that.
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Raglan Matt Lip service perhaps? 6 years 11 months ago #54

Raglan Matt
Free kicks on the weekend in games played in Perth. Game 1 home team 19 free kicks; away team 16 freekicks: Game 2 home team 14 free kicks; away team 21 free kicks.
Conclusion of the umpires coach; Their is a serious influence by the home team crowds in Perth. Can that statement be backed up with raw data? Hawthorn are perceived to have been the victims of an umpiring bias in Perth Friday night. How can Cambell take that game and draw the conclusion that the crowd is the cause of umpiring bias?
The home crowd in the second game is just as vocal in support of their team, yet have no obvious influence on umpiring decisions, so as someone earlier said Cambell is either incompetent or dishonest. In either case he should lose his job.

Maybe it is time to bring an umpires coach or advisor from another code, give him a laws of the game book and tell him to teach umpires to umpire to those laws of the game.
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rocky333 Lip service perhaps? 6 years 11 months ago #55

rocky333
to me it looks like the umps totally ignore the frees that freo should get and pay the opposition team frees for really soft things,a case I see every week is pav getting scragged and held,fyfe getting held out of the contest and sandi has allways got somebody hanging off him,even mundy gets the same treatment
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Raglan Matt Lip service perhaps? 6 years 11 months ago #56

Raglan Matt
And I cant wait till the umpires are allowed to throw the ball up instead of bouncing it to start quarters and after a goal.

Meanwhile, Campbell said the umpires’ jobs would be made easier if they didn’t have to worry about bouncing the ball to start play at the beginning of each quarter and after a goal. The skill is a difficult one to execute and even harder to master. Calls to scrap the bounce have grown louder in recent days after the opening bounce to the Richmond-North Melbourne elimination final last Sunday went astray and was recalled, which soaks up time.

We should see a much better standard of umpiring once this blight on the game is taken away.

Seriously though, if having to bounce the ball has such a profound effect on the standard of decisions made by some umpires, are those umpires capable of making the correct decisions under the pressure of an AFL game regardless of whether they have to bounce the ball or not?
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