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TOPIC: The trouble with winning ugly

Mushroom The trouble with winning ugly 8 years 6 months ago #1

is that when you play the same way and lose it carries significantly more negative currency than a win would carry positive.

in the mind set of your opposition toward you
in the mind set of the fans* toward you
in the mind set of the media - who unfortunately mould the mindset of the wider public

Ross Lyon can retreat to his proverbial bank, that he seems to visit frequently to check his four-point transaction statement, and move on. But he's in a different dimension to most.

The Freo players, however...are they mentally strong and attuned enough to do this? Or are there bits poking out of the orb that are a bit fragile and can snap (or be bitten off) a bit too easily? Is this why Freo are not dead-set favourites to smash anyone and everyone in the approaching finals?

* except, maybe, a minority of rusted-ons who have now become so accustomed to the method that they accept the mediocrity [spotto] of winning over winning the best way possible
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Noddy The trouble with winning ugly 8 years 6 months ago #2

I hear where you are coming from, but I think Lyon does the best with the list he's got. IMO if we had a more potent forward line the options of game plan would be greater.
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Corporal Agarn, Troll said You Beaut

Morgan The trouble with winning ugly 8 years 6 months ago #3

Do the losses really carry more weight. All three of them?

i. Richmond played out of their skins for a quarter. They are good for about 5 of those quarters a year, and we copped one. The rest of the game we had their measure.

ii. The Hawks smashed us in Tassie. Add Freo to the pile.

iii. The Eagles came out hungrier in a game they needed to win, and got a significant assist from the umps. Again, for three quarters we had their measure.

We are a workman-like team, with a few stars, and a couple of holes. We're not as good as Hawthorn, and there are a few teams whose best might be better than ours. But I'd back our style in September to put us in a good place. The Bullies and West Coast play some attacking footy, but we'd rightly start favourites to beat them in September. Remember, Port and Sydney were favoured ahead of us this year, and both, for different reasons, have fallen away this year. Meanwhile, we win a couple more games, and we have the best possible ride to the GF.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love if we had a bit more attacking flair, but who would you add to the starting 22 that could provide it? Morabito and Simpson would have been some icing on the cake, but they didn't come up. Instead we have D Pearce playing on the outside spraying the ball all over the park. We have C Pearce and Mzungu running around being handy, but adding all the explosiveness of a wet tissue.

Our forward conversion is a bit average, but our best big forward is 68 years old, Chris Mayne seems alergic to kicking goals and has never regained his 2013 form, and Ballas was down this year, and now missing. We try and talk ourselves into Tabs and A Pearce, but really, they're not exactly putting fear into the hearts of the opposition. Only Sonny is a legit A-grader in the forward line, so if you think you have a better system to eek out goals, I'd love to hear it.

You could try to open the game up a bit, but we are a yard short for pace. Do you really want a shoot out with teams that are quicker than us?

We're doing as well as could reasonable be expected.
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zorro, goodie, humone, addicted, DougGreen, Yossarian, paul4471, Noddy, Raglan Matt, Derby12 said You Beaut and this user have 3 others thankyou

bpurple The trouble with winning ugly 8 years 6 months ago #4

If winning ugly means that your opposition set out to completely flood your backline, scrag your players (and get away with it), do everything in their power to slow the game where they can and generally turn every possession into a wrestling match, then all you can do is win. I don't think Freo take the field with that game plan in mind but that is what teams have done in order to slow us down. What fries my eggs is when lesser teams do it to us it's called applying superb pressure, when we do it as a counter to this "superb pressure", its called an ugly style of football. The three times we have been beaten this year we have been jumped and played catch up that was not good enough to snare a win (although two were close). I will take an ugly win every day of the week. Winning is a habit and it's one we have developed better than all the other sides in the comp this year, regardless of personal perceptions the ladder doesn't lie. There are 17 other teams who would love to be where we are now.
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addicted, Raglan Matt, DockerKnockers said You Beaut

paul4471 The trouble with winning ugly 8 years 6 months ago #5

Great summary Morgan and I would add that that is why we rely on defensive pressure. We have a much more elite back line.
My only concern is that history tells us that it won't get us a flag and we need an attack. Maybe we can re-write history - I hope! I reckon we will need everyone of our best 18 available to do it (I think we can muck around at the fringes for the other 4 on the day). One missing tooth on the cog of those 18 and it'll be difficult.
Still daring to dream and ladder position cannot be discounted after 20 rounds - there's no excuses there for the teams below us.
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shane The trouble with winning ugly 8 years 6 months ago #6

Workman like team? I think you're just proving Mushroom's point.
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Mushroom said You Beaut

bpurple The trouble with winning ugly 8 years 6 months ago #7

I am becoming dismayed........ is the message that because we are workman like (which I think is selling a number of our players short) we don't deserve our spot on the ladder or the ultimate success.
Bring on the NFL season on FOX where they are not afraid to call the team that leads the comp exactly what it is, the best.
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rogerrocks The trouble with winning ugly 8 years 6 months ago #8

Morgan, I was a bit worried when you said the toast got a significant assist from the umpires. You'd better watch out, or you'll start saying that the MRP aren't always entirely fair to Freo players...
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Morgan, Raglan Matt, Duges66 said You Beaut

Mushroom The trouble with winning ugly 8 years 6 months ago #9

Lord no, bpurple. It is not about deservedness, it is about capability and mental capacity and stacking up every plate of that mental weight onto the shoulders of the opposition..

Look at Freo's list. There shouldn't be a team in the top eight, top six, top four for whom the prospect of playing it in the finals doesn't scare their absolute pants off.

However, if I'm one of those teams, especially top four, I am queueing up to play Freo because I reckon I always stand a chance because they won't put me to the sword. Right or wrong this is the perception that is oozing out. Do ya reckon a bit of this is oozing back in to the players minds, feedback-loop style, and creating a bigger problem?

As for a method, I would love to strap an ankle bracelet to said 68 year old that stops him from moving more than 35 metres from goal unless he's on a lead or lining up for a shot. If you're so workman-like and a yard short for pace, how does having to sprint the length of the field toward a forward line filled with nothing but grass, two pigeons a goal ump and a ball boy in order to score get you more goals?
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goodie, DazzElle said You Beaut

timmeh The trouble with winning ugly 8 years 6 months ago #10

And the end of the day, what people will remember most is who won on the last saturday in september, or in the case of this year, october. How teams got there is someone irrelevant when the end of all arguments will be who won on the day. West Coast can have their derby win (unfortunately) Hawthorn can have their north antarctica victories, for every 8 goal quarter blitz richmond produces, there is also the 9 goal quarter they concede in finals.

Sit back and enjoy the journey rather than getting too caught up in how teams are playing in August. Its september I'm more interested in.
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Dockerplus, jezzaargh said You Beaut

Mushroom The trouble with winning ugly 8 years 6 months ago #11

DOn't kid yourself. If it was all about simply the win or simply the loss, you wouldn't invest your hard-earned into game tickets and memberships or your time into sitting for three hours on the couch or at the pub to watch the game, four days dissecting it and two days building up to the next one. You'd read the result in the paper, give yourself a polite "hurrah", send a text to your west coast mates, then get back to your topped-up macchiato reading advertorials for the block or masterchef. THe way it happens matters. A lot.

Ok. I'll stop being obtuse because poeple turn the discussion into something that it isn't.

The opposition that matter aren't in the least bit scared of taking on Freo. How are the players setting themselves up, mentally to deal with this when they are capable of more than simply ugly play (win or lose)?

Or Can they? Or are they?
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hypen The trouble with winning ugly 8 years 6 months ago #12

Morgan you make these observations about the forward line and of course you are correct. But you have also defended Bond when we put forward the notion that he has done nothing of substance to address the problem in four years.

It's so frustrating, by the time we have fixed the fwd line deficiencies our ship will have sailed.
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Bizkit, Corporal Agarn said You Beaut

Bizkit The trouble with winning ugly 8 years 6 months ago #13

I can't agree with most of that Morgan. We are far from a workmanlike team with stars in all areas of the ground. The best ruckman in the comp, the best midfield (and individual mid as well as probably the best outside mid in Hill), the best backline and the best small forward set up. It's far from workmanlike but that is the role RL wants them to take.

Individually I'd back Freo to comfortably take care of any opposition man for man if comparing best 22's.

The problem comes with our structure and ball movement for mine. RL's go to is extra numbers behind the ball and those numbers come from our forwardline leaving at best 4 on 4 but most of the time 4v6, 3v5 etc. You need absolutely perfect ball movement from there to maintain possession, not just to score and that is very hard to do for any side. It's almost as if we concede possession of the footy in an attempt to turn it over with pressure/numbers inside the defensive 50m and try to catch the opposition out on the rebound. Problem is we haven't got the speed to do that or the contested marking power up forward as an alternate. It makes things very hard for our forwards.

It would be nice if we drafted some forwards or players with pace instead of midfielders non stop but we don't do that apparently.
Nathan: When did you get balls?
Simon: I've always had balls you've just never seen them.
Nathan: That's the gayest thing I've ever heard.
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DazzElle said You Beaut

RideoftheVagaries The trouble with winning ugly 8 years 6 months ago #14

The key word is winning. The rest are intangibles.

And no I'm not Ross.
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