TOPIC: One step back, for two steps forward

White One step back, for two steps forward 1 month 3 weeks ago #1

White
This is not a radical concept, nor is it revolutionary thinking by any means, but I believe (just as I assume Bizkit does) that it would be in the best interests of the FFC, to avert any thoughts of grandeur relating to trading in "the next saviour of the club this trade period, eg. Tim Kelly, and instead attend the draft with the full intention of drafting four or so top class Western Australian players to fill our needs. It might mean being resigned to the fact that the "rebuild" is not yet complete, but long-term it will pay dividends!! Hypothetically, if we were to lose Brad hill, only to trade in Tim Kelly, we would have at best broken even. Also, Tim Kelly will cost far too much currency and did not want to play for our club to begin with. Just my two cents.
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hypen One step back, for two steps forward 1 month 3 weeks ago #2

hypen
I think you are spot on White. But Lyon and Rosich are not long term kind of guys. Had we have done what you just suggested, prioritising WA and rural Eastern States talent. We'd be in a great space now.
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The_Yeti One step back, for two steps forward 1 month 3 weeks ago #3

The_Yeti
Yeah, I dunno about the one step forward and two steps back. I reckon we forgot to take the one step forward.

We embarked on a rebuild because the players we had 'apparently' didn't have the skills needed to make Roly's system work. So we got rid of effective players like Barlow and De Boer because they weren't fast enough or smart enough or skilled enough.....or maybe just not liked enough by Roly.

Well, it seems Barlow (before breaking his leg again), De Boer, Menegola were all fast enough, smart enough and skilled enough to perform well at other clubs after being delisted at Freo. Then we commenced the process of recruiting players to do what the Barlows, Menegolas and De Boers were already doing.

Some unpleasant facts for the Lyonistas on here. Our rebuild has not resulted in a better skilled team. It has not resulted in any improvement over the team that was built under the previous coach, in fact results-wise we've declined significantly and now we're looking at being forced into another five year rebuild with zero prospect of doing anything differently to the way we've done for far too long.

To be brutally honest, all I'm seeing is two or three steps back and a club that refuses to acknowledge that change is absolutely required to achieve any improvement.
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Gumnut One step back, for two steps forward 1 month 3 weeks ago #4

Gumnut
As an interesting sidepoint to next year planning I'm wondering if commitment to the cause should form part of next weeks selection.
Given that Sandi and Ballas, not being with us next year, will not play against Port should we also take a hard line on Brad Hill and Langdon. I think they should be presnted with their contracts on Monday and if not prepared to commit then we leave them in Perth and give a young player a trip instead. Possible ins would be Dixon, North, Carter, Banfield, Sturt and Watson. If we are to believe the Cub Website then Cox and Ryan should also be ins for next week. I know it would mean a very inexperienced side next week but we can have a look at these guys, see if they can play and find out who is really committed to next season's campaign, irrelevant of any coaching moves. We can also start formulating any possible trade ploys for wanted players, Kelly or Brayshaw, and draft positioning to get Liam Henry, Luke Jackson.or any other prospective draft targets.
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hypen One step back, for two steps forward 1 month 3 weeks ago #5

hypen
It's a profession to them Gumnut. If dropping them for that sole reason was tested in the FairWork Commisssion I reckon you'd get done. Rightly so too.
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Gumnut One step back, for two steps forward 1 month 3 weeks ago #6

Gumnut
But isn't that the same with Ross. He's got a year to run on his contract and has fulfilled his part of the bargain this season in wins and overall improvement given that we have all of our first choice tall forwards, Hogan, Lobb, Taberner, our best tall defender Pearce and our best 2 rebounding defenders Ryan and Wilson out injured. Ousting him now as suggested by many on this site could also be seen as breach of contract and rightly so.
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The_Yeti One step back, for two steps forward 1 month 3 weeks ago #7

The_Yeti
Wins and overall improvement, Gumnut.

I think you mean extra win (singular) and the overall improvement is basically smaller losing margins. That is not what I would see as improvement.

As for breach of contract, well no. If there are performance requirements built into the contract, then you would have determine whether Roly has met his part of the bargain. It's impossible to see that he has unless they were set so low as to be ridiculous.

If there are no performance targets to be achieved, then in their absence, there might be an argument for breach of contract but if he gets paid out then there is no breach.

Either way, you can't make a case that Roly has performed well enough to hold onto his job. 4 seasons in the bottom 6 is not any hallmark of incipient success.
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Gumnut One step back, for two steps forward 1 month 3 weeks ago #8

Gumnut
The only other comment I've got on Ross situation is that I'm sure he must have met some degree of performance indicator set by the club in order to have made such confident public comments that he will coach in 2020. None of us here are privy to any such privately negotiated contract conditions so it's pointless to further discuss these points. I still stand however on any non commitment by players giving them a walk up start next week. Hill has a contract for the next 2 seasons so he could reasonably expect a spot however Langdon seems to have flirted with the possibilty of leaving since midway through the season, has no contract for next year and as such should not be an automatic selection next week. I'd much rather have a look at someone like Tom North, Sam Sturt or Tobe Watson all of whom are on our list for next season.
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shane One step back, for two steps forward 1 month 3 weeks ago #9

shane
None of us here are privy to any such privately negotiated contract conditions on Lyon...but you're all over the contract negotiations for Hill and Langdon.
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itscraptacular One step back, for two steps forward 1 month 3 weeks ago #10

itscraptacular
I've never understood the De Boer delisting.

I'd like to know how hard the club fought to retain Neale.

On yesterday's performance and a few during the year, I'd be happy for Brad Hill to leave.

I was upset to see Mayne and Barlow leave, but realised that if you have a 4-5yr rebuild program, then you start immediately after the 'highs' of a couple of finals appearances with an older group.

I also think the constant refrain that we should be 'more Hawthorn' and recruit a succession of ex-Clarke assistants, or coach-a-likes hasn't helped either.

Losing Lloyd and Kirk was a big change - was it their own opportunities or did they struggle with RTB's style?
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Gumnut One step back, for two steps forward 1 month 3 weeks ago #11

Gumnut
Agree with you on the Matt de Boer delisting. Playing on Bontempelli today and he's only allowed him 9 disposals midway through 3rd qtr. It's list management decisions like this that have puzzled me over the journey as Leon Cameron has him as a walk up start in one of the most talented finals bound sides in the competition.
Just another point on the Langdon and Hill show. Their talent is immense and they have played some great footy earlier in the season but their disposal in recent weeks has seen many costly turnovers as it seems to me at least that their minds are not fully on the job at hand and contract matters are foremost. I'm not dealing in mystic unknowns here either Shane. Langdon HAS been reluctant to sign on for next season and still hasn't put pen to paper on a new deal and Brad Hill seems to be torn as to where his future lies next year, in Melbourne with his partner or here in the Purple. I'm not condemning him for this but we do need to know where we stand for next season in order to assess the young players currently on our list and who may be here next season.
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shane One step back, for two steps forward 1 month 3 weeks ago #12

shane
You don't know he's been reluctant. You're engaging in conjecture, which you are apparently opposed to.
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Raglan Matt said You Beaut

Gumnut One step back, for two steps forward 1 month 3 weeks ago #13

Gumnut
Well you'd know Shane, most of your posts as are many on this site are based on pure conjecture and personal opinion.That's probably a product of the last few years and the many unknowns promoted by the Steves. We just have to look to the future with whoever really wants to commit and so far that hasn't included Ed. If he has been offered a contract then he needs to make up his mind and let us know where his future lies. I'm pretty sure that given the uncertainty of Hill's future any contract would be fairly attractive but there would probably be some crazy figures being sent his way by clubs such as Melbourne and St Kilda for his services.
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CaptSnooze One step back, for two steps forward 1 month 3 weeks ago #14

CaptSnooze
Gumnut you are correct about conjecture being the only available avenue to us most of the time, but lost me at "we can have a look at these guys, see if they can play ".
This is an inferior, second-rate team where we have no Ben Brown. The new guys won't be able to show what they've got, and will probably get belted. The main point of interest about the upcoming game is whether a small loss margin is still a 2019 kpi for Ross n Rosich.
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Corporal Agarn said You Beaut