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TOPIC: New coach

shane New coach 5 years 2 months ago #71

shane
It was a turn of phrase. I just think maybe you could take a minute to read something before jumping in.
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darthmarto New coach 5 years 2 months ago #72

darthmarto
If thorough reading and research is the new threshold before commenting, it may get a little quiet around here.

Just to be clear, I’m certainly not saying Montagna is a saint. Though I would suggest that under the spotlight the Victorian Police would have been, given the suggestions of cover ups & corruption, if there was a sniff of Montagna doing anything wrong, they would have put him before the courts and shifted decision making to that particular tribunal, in a fairly common move of “letting the court decide”.
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Bizkit New coach 5 years 2 months ago #73

Bizkit
Doing something illegal and being of horrible character are not mutually exclusive. Pretending like because Montagna wasn't charged with anything, he's fine is burying your head in the sand. His conduct was deplorable.
Nathan: When did you get balls?
Simon: I've always had balls you've just never seen them.
Nathan: That's the gayest thing I've ever heard.
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The_Yeti, Raglan Matt, funbeanman said You Beaut

The_Yeti New coach 5 years 2 months ago #74

The_Yeti
darthmarto,

There is no way the police can put somebody before a court with the intent of passing the buck to somebody else to decide if he's done something wrong.

There has to be sufficient evidence to justify a charge and there has to be a reasonable prospect of conviction. If the evidence isn't solid enough to get a conviction they won't ever put it up. Plus the DPP would refuse to prosecute if there was not a reasonable prospect of conviction.

All it takes is clear doubt and no prosecution would go forward. That doesn't mean that the person is not a Ratbag though
Egurls Suck!
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darthmarto New coach 5 years 2 months ago #75

darthmarto
For police to prefer a charge there has to be a prima facie case, which is not exactly a high threshold.

The DPP will indict if there is a reasonable prospect of conviction and tends to be a more considered decision.

It’s chalk and cheese.

And yes policing agencies will prefer charges that meet their threshold (or approach it) that are not pursued by the DPP as the brief doesn’t hit the higher threshold. Happens all the time.
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The_Yeti New coach 5 years 2 months ago #76

The_Yeti
Yeah that's not quite right, Darth.

A prima facie case is not a low threshold.

The offence had to be dealt with carefully. There has to be evidence to support every element of the alleged offence. If one element can't be proven then the charge won't proceed.

Any factor that introduces reasonable doubt will prevent an element from being proven and so any charge won't be laid or if it had been laid and reasonable doubt is subsequently found, it will be withdrawn.

As for police laying charges and the DPP not proceeding, that is not a common occurrence. The usual procedure is to have the police submit a brief to the DPP, who will examine it and then let the police proceed to laying a charge or requiring further investigation to cover specific aspects.

That doesn't apply to simple offences, only to indictable offences.
Egurls Suck!
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shane New coach 5 years 2 months ago #77

shane
Come on. I'm not expecting research, I just can't understand why you wouldn't take a few minutes to glance at what happened. You want people to answer your basic questions about the gist of the incident.

There was a very big suggestion of a cover up because he wasn't initially charged by St Kilda police. There was an investigation into the handling of the case, and from that charges were laid against Milne.

You're just running interference, not participating in a discussion.
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darthmarto New coach 5 years 2 months ago #78

darthmarto
Ok, quick hypothetical to illustrate;

Yeti goes to the police & says Jezza punched him in the nose at the pub.

Yeti signs his (or her) statement outlining the above, produces a letter from the doctor documenting his (or her) injuries & coppers take pictures of Yeti’s bruised nose.

Prima facie standard reached.

Coppers drag Jezza in, who acts on legal advice and says nothing to the coppers.

Coppers charge Jezza.

Then Jezza briefs his lawyer in detail and outlines how Yeti had a barstool over his head and was threatening to bash him so Jezza struck first.

Self defence provisions come into play and the prospect of a conviction starts to become shaky. DPP decide not to proceed on that basis, matter is nollied after the committal.

Happens all the time.
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shane New coach 5 years 2 months ago #79

shane
Quicker hypothetical. I didn't watch the football, I come on here and tell everyone the team is rubbish because we lost by 10 points and the coach should be sacked because I've watched other games of football in the past.

Darthmarto tells me to go and watch the football.
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darthmarto, Raglan Matt said You Beaut

darthmarto New coach 5 years 2 months ago #80

darthmarto
Exactly ;)

Plus it was a pub where Morgan was doing a review ...
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The_Yeti New coach 5 years 2 months ago #81

The_Yeti
Not like that it doesn't.

1. Why would the police charge me if I'm the one who got hit?
2. If Jezza refused to speak (as is his right) what evidence would the police have to charge me?
3. Common Assault is a simple offence and would be dealt with by the police prosecutor not DPP.
4. Your idea of what constitutes a prima facie case is completely incorrect.

In this case to establish that you would need to cover off on all the elements of the offence, have witnesses ( you don't have a prima facie case on a he said / she said situation without additional corroborating evidence) and there can't be any reasonable doubt.

The level of evidence you provided in your example would give cause to launch an investigation but in no way has it established anything like a prima facie case.

I think you're struggling to find some justification for your objections
Egurls Suck!
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darthmarto New coach 5 years 2 months ago #82

darthmarto
Sorry I had some Yeti / Jezza mixup.

And I was leaning toward AOBH, yes it’s lower end of the scale but it’s indictable.
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FDB New coach 5 years 2 months ago #83

FDB
Darth, what we have here is a case where the victim, a witness and the perpetrator agree that a sexual assault took place. Another potential witness, to whom we have just given a lucrative job, saw fit to disagree.

Some of us don’t like that.
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shane, pollyanna, themagoos, funbeanman said You Beaut

The_Yeti New coach 5 years 2 months ago #84

The_Yeti
Even with AOBH, you haven't established a case other than perhaps enough to trigger an investigation but never enough to charge.

Player 1: He hit me. See my nose
Player 2: silence

Result? Nothing to see here

To build a case good enough to charge, you need corroborating evidence ie. witnesses (plural), CCTV of the incident, established date and time, corroborating medical evidence that was gathered as soon as possible after the event. You get all of that at a minimum and you have a start.

Then you have to eliminate all possible defences. You mentioned self defence. If the witnesses support that, you don't have a case. If the witnesses aren't sure who threw the punch ie Jezza or perhaps his evil twin, you don't have a case.

The hurdle you need to get over is quite a bit higher than you imagine.
Egurls Suck!
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