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TOPIC: Buggerations II: Groundhog Day

moodindigo Buggerations II: Groundhog Day 5 years 2 months ago #15

moodindigo
I decided about two years ago to just assume Harley will never get on the park for us. It's taught me a valuable life lesson. Don't hope. That way any surprises are pleasant ones.
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The_Yeti Buggerations II: Groundhog Day 5 years 2 months ago #16

The_Yeti
Jezza,

You'd have to have full faith in the design of the Titanic.

Unlike those 'hopeless' medicos at Good Coast, our medicos have not succeeded in getting Bennell on the park for how many years now?

Yet you trumpet how much you back them in to do something that so far has been completely beyond their capabilities. Those meds must really be something
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Raglan Matt Buggerations II: Groundhog Day 5 years 2 months ago #17

Raglan Matt
Most of our injuries are overuse type of injury, and many seem to hit early in the season. There is a message there, but no-one at coaching central, Cockburn, wants to answer the phone.
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Jezza Buggerations II: Groundhog Day 5 years 2 months ago #18

Jezza
I’m just using Daniel Wells as an example. Calf issues throughout his career. North Melb couldn’t fix him, goes to the Pies, arguably best medicos in the land, coupled with their state of the art Lexus training facilities, and still Wells fails to play anymore than a handful of games a season. So to whack people who can’t get Bennell on the footy field is unfair. You persist until the player makes it on the park. You can’t afford to play a player unless he’s 100% fit. There’s no where to hide.
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Bizkit Buggerations II: Groundhog Day 5 years 2 months ago #19

Bizkit
Not to let facts get in the way of making a point but Daniel Wells was 32 at the time and expected to cop injuries so a calculated risk was taken to try and get him through a season only playing important games because they knew he was going to get injured.

Only 2 years of the contract have passed (he played 10 games in the first year and 4 last year) which is about expected for an injury prone 34 year old. He still has a year to go on his contract and is going about as expected. For comparison, Bennell was 23 when he arrived at Freo and has played 2 games in 3 seasons with more games to be missed in his 4th with this latest recurrence. Bennell was expected to play the majority of that time if not all of it. They're not like for like comparisons.

Clearly our medico's can't get Harley right and refuse to manage him for a role that will sustain his calfs. Fire the medico's and try someone else or let Harley go and sort it out with proper rest and recovery like Hendrix did.
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shane Buggerations II: Groundhog Day 5 years 2 months ago #20

shane
That's nonsense, Jezza. Most players throughout the season will play with an injury or an illness or just a bit rundown. They're very fit but they're Olympic runners timing their 10 second performance to perfection.

Even at 100%, different players have different capacities. Ballantyne will never have the running capacity of Michael Walters. Michael Walters will never have the running capacity of David Mundy. So you don't play Ballanytne on the ball all day.

Paul Haselby struggled with back problems. Eventually they decided he wasn't going to be able to play as a full time midfeilder so, because skill and talent is a rarer and more valuable commodity than the ability to run a lot, they put him in the forward line and got him to take marks.

Bennell's calves are an issue and as soon as they ramp up his training schedule he gets in trouble. Stop pushing him to meet some arbitrary concept of fitness perfection and accept that talent and execution is a major part of winning games of football.
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Jezza Buggerations II: Groundhog Day 5 years 2 months ago #21

Jezza
Bizkit, so what you’re saying is Wells has averaged 7 games in 2 years, not the 15 the Pies were hoping to get per season. Great thanks for those facts. I think, our medicos are no better or no worse than some high profile clubs. HB has got time on his side. Perhaps players like Wells, Deledio and HB just require the gods to be kind to them.
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The_Yeti Buggerations II: Groundhog Day 5 years 2 months ago #22

The_Yeti
Nowhere to hide?

They could hide behind you no problems.

Gold Coast could get him on the park yet somehow, we can't. Yet, you back our medicos in.

Why?
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Bizkit Buggerations II: Groundhog Day 5 years 2 months ago #23

Bizkit
The 15 games per year is your arbitrary figure, not a fact. When the Pies signed him they spoke of nursing him through the year and playing important games. The number of games Wells has played is a fact but says nothing about their medico's who are more than likely reaching their targets and expectations. He is old and it's not expected that his body would hold up to the rigours of AFL anymore. Getting it to AFL status is an achievement, not an expectation.

Harley was not expected to miss much of his first season if any at all but has missed 64 of 66 games over his 3 year contract with the other 2 games being tiny stints in the forwardline with something like 40% time on ground. He effectively hasn't played. Given another 22 games to play, you can rule him out of the first few with no guarantee of playing any further. That's horrible.

Harley is still so young and after more than 3 years of trying, they still haven't figured out how to get him on the field. The medico's have done nothing to earn faith, only prove they are incapable of managing his injuries and getting him fit.
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pollyanna Buggerations II: Groundhog Day 5 years 2 months ago #24

pollyanna
It's just a strain - a couple of warm baths and no dancing until the weekend. Sure, he shouldn't be pushed into a Steph Giro role, that's stupid. But I suspect this is just feeding the media's need to have a monthly Harley Bennell story - you know, sort of like worrying Granny that they're going to licence her old cat.
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Corporal Agarn Buggerations II: Groundhog Day 5 years 2 months ago #25

Corporal Agarn
"What’s the issue. Bennell has time on his side. I’m still backing him in. And I’ve got full faith in our medicos to get him to the line this year."

Yeah whatever. You also told us he was going to be a 200+ game player for us. Just another of your endless wrong statements and predictions.
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Morgan Buggerations II: Groundhog Day 5 years 2 months ago #26

Morgan
I’m constantly impressed how people who have carved out the considerable time it takes to become experts across so many technical fields also have the time to post on Dockerland. It’s extraordinary.

Harley has a bung calf. Talented players in their prime before him have had their careers cut short because of recurrent injuries, and players after him will as well. Most are cut from a list after a couple of seasons, but Freo has persevered with players like Mora and Bennell long after other clubs would have cut bait. Putting injury management to the side, if you were inclined to view the FFC in anything other than the most negative light, you might consider that sort of commitment to injured player is an admirable thing. It does, of course, give fans predisposed to sinking the boot into Freo another chance to lament them not finding the silver bullet to a complex injury.

On the Freo injury management side, no-one has ever made a compelling argument that Freo is worse at managing injuries that other teams. As of a few days ago, only 5 teams had fewer injuries than Freo this pre-season (that list already included Bennell), so I’m not sure there’s any evidence this is an epidemic not faced by other clubs, at least not at the moment, nor in the time I’ve been keeping an eye on this. The AFL tracks injury rates, so I’m assuming Freo know exactly how their injury rates compare to other clubs. I tend to think people in power are protective of their high-paying jobs, so I’m sure if Bond or Lyon had compelling data to suggest Webber was making them look bad, they would have pulled the trigger.

As for Harley, I didn’t watch too many Peel games last year but the games I saw he played largely as a forward. That’s where Lyon talked about playing him on his speculated return against the Eagles. That’s where he played when he returned to Freo for the games he played the year before. I’m not sure where this notion of him playing though the middle has come from. I reckon Lyon and Co just wanted him to make it through a block of games at WAFL level before ramping up the pace he was expected to play at.
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funbeanman Buggerations II: Groundhog Day 5 years 2 months ago #27

funbeanman
It's time to Delist Harley Bennell and bring in Marlon Pickett before the Match 15 deadline
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Tragic Buggerations II: Groundhog Day 5 years 2 months ago #28

Tragic
I don't have enough information on Bennell's injuries to know what the precise truth is. That said, I think I posted years ago that my unreliable mail was that Gold Coast were happy to trade him as they had real concerns about his longevity in the game.
To my mind that raises the question as to whether there is imaging available that suggests he has complications of the torn muscles he sustained.
A quick read on possible issues can be found here.
but to quote what I think are the relevant bits
"Factors associated with recurrent muscle injuries include: extrinsic and intrinsic factors. Extrinsic factors are premature return-to-play, inadequate training, muscle strength imbalances, decreased flexibility, increasing age, and history of prior injury. Intrinsic factors are persistent weakness in the injured muscle, reduced extensibility of the musculo-tendon unit due to residual scar tissue and adaptive changes in the biomechanics and motor patterns of sporting movements following the original injury"
I think it is a given that he has scar tissue.
"The healing of a muscle trauma can occur by means of two processes: through the regeneration of muscle fibres or through the formation of a fibrotic scar. In most cases, these processes are associated and are carried out simultaneously and competitively. In some cases, however, the balance between the two mechanisms can tilt towards the first or the second <snip> The fibrotic scar alters the muscle mechanic, reducing the contractile capacity of the muscle, and therefore, the ability to develop strength comparable to healthy muscular tissue"
Basically the medicos keep doing what they do because they have no other options. Has not worked yet and no reason to see why it will work in the future.
The argument about having him play a lesser role is, in my view, also likely to fail. An athlete is at risk of calf muscle tears while performing manoeuvres that require sudden and swift changes in direction leading to overstretching of the muscle. I think one of Bennell's strengths was his ability to change direction at speed.
I really would like to know what the medical report was, prior to his re-signing this year.
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