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TOPIC: Members' Meeting - 27/Nov/2018

ghq Members' Meeting - 27/Nov/2018 5 years 5 months ago #85

ghq
Just to sum up then. If you need 15- 100 game players to win a grand final, it would definitely help if said 15 were extremely fit and motivated. And it would help just a little more if all 15 were above average at skills level. Not that one would expect agreement from all sides.
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TheColonel Members' Meeting - 27/Nov/2018 5 years 5 months ago #86

TheColonel
As the famous golfer Ben Hogan said "... The more you practice and train - the luckier you get ... "
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freo00 said You Beaut

rogerrocks Members' Meeting - 27/Nov/2018 5 years 5 months ago #87

rogerrocks
I don't think it is skills versus fitness. Rather, it is a virtuous circle - if you are really fit you get to the contest and maybe even leave your opponent behind, giving you more time for your disposal, making you look more skillful. If your teams skills are good you don't have to run as much, so you look fitter.

For the last few seasons I've thought that we looked over-trained - to the point where we looked tired on game day. And that virtually guarantees a loss. So if Ross means we'll be fresher on game day, that would be nice.

Much as I hate the mob up the road, they run really hard on game day. Yes they have good key position players, but often it is their ability to leave their opponents behind that wins them the game. And they are good at knowing when to put the big effort in. Of course it helps that they know that Kennedy or Darling will be waiting for the ball up the other end, so their effort won't be wasted.
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point less, freo00 said You Beaut

shane Members' Meeting - 27/Nov/2018 5 years 5 months ago #88

shane
We work too hard to get a goal and by the time a player gets in a scoring position they're, excuse the medical jargon, rooted.

Chris Mayne is a good example. He was very good at kicking goals under previous coaches but under Ross Lyon, where there was a lot of emphasis on forwards constantly running back, he'd sprinted 100 metres to get back to the forward line and get the ball.

More related to a positional change than the game plan but it's been the same with Michael Walters. As a pure forward his kicking was spot on, every time. When he's playing in the midfield he's been 50-50 in front of goals.

At peak Chris Connolly we were scoring really efficiently and players would be rotated through the forward line, so you still weren't leaving excess energy on the table but you didn't have everyone working hard at the same time.

Now, if you're always chasing that extra bit of fitness to counter the problem of players being exhausted, then you have to give up some work on skills.
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point less, goodie, rogerrocks, pollyanna, DazzElle, freo00 said You Beaut

Raglan Matt Members' Meeting - 27/Nov/2018 5 years 5 months ago #89

Raglan Matt
Gee Shane, I never looked at it like that. Who would have thought that if you are "rooted" (to put it medically) before you run out on the ground, you would not be able to execute your skills effectively. A concept so novel that only the last 100+ years worth of premiership coaches are the only ones to have done something about it.

The lower leagues all over Australia are full of players who are among the best in the land at applying effort, but they struggle with their skills. The most successful players in the land are probably (almost certainly) not the fittest, but they are the best going around because of their skills. Stop making excuses for a flawed strategy and admit we need to polish our skills.
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freo00 said You Beaut

mac Members' Meeting - 27/Nov/2018 5 years 5 months ago #90

mac
Several "highlight's" of players over the past several years running towards goals with no one in our forward 50m and the kick is soft.
I still laugh at Balla's tripping over the ball in the 5m out as his little legs were stuffed.
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Morgan Members' Meeting - 27/Nov/2018 5 years 5 months ago #91

Morgan
Sometimes I think I'm watching different games than people on here (and I'm guessing that view is shared). We were one of the better kicking teams last year, especially in the backline. Our disposal efficiency and uncontested possessions were among the very few stats we we were better than average.

We have in my opinion the best kicking backline that Freo has ever had, and one of the better backlines in the league. Wilson, S Hill, Ryan are very good field kicks, and for bigger guys Hamling and Pearce are very good. They aren't good kicks because we trained them in kicking more than, say, the forwards. It's because we recruited and played good kicking defenders.

Where we fell in a hole was in contested ball, and our entries and marking in the forward line. We were bottom four for both.

People have made Lyon into a straw man who doesn't believe in skills. Outside of that figment of people's imaginations, no-one considers that skills aren't important, or that they shouldn't be trained. The question is how do you tweak your time to address your biggest failings. Where do you spend your limited time? Complicating things is that no-one on here knows how much time Freo spend on any of this stuff, so it's an argument so far removed from reality as to be meaningless.

I think goad coaches would tweak their training based on where the team most needs help. Based on last year, I would spend a little more time on the positioning and transition from the middle of the ground to the forward line. I would probably try to build some of our midfielders up a little. So, where we practise skills, for me it would be more in game situations where we also drill into the forwards where to run, and the mids where to expect them and hit them up.

I might not need for that to happen on the Gold Coast, but it seems that's what the club is doing. Maybe Tabs and Cox will over time learn how to not butcher the ball, but in the meantime, getting them to the right spots is just as much of a priority, if not more.
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goodie, rogerrocks, Jezza, Down on down, Rhufus said You Beaut

Suker Members' Meeting - 27/Nov/2018 5 years 5 months ago #92

Suker
I agree Morgan, our entries were erratic at best most of the time. Positioning and movement up forward looked nervous and unsure in our bad losses. A lack of confidence in your forwards and probably a lack of confidence in the mids made it all look really terrible at times. Taberner did look like the contested marking forward we wanted him to be but was out most of the year. If we somehow do play Lobb, Tab and Hogan as forwards, together, I reckon the options will be too many for our mids to miss all of them.
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Raglan Matt Members' Meeting - 27/Nov/2018 5 years 5 months ago #93

Raglan Matt
Morgan, Lyon has said time and time again, that he rates effort much higher than skills when it comes to selecting a team. Don't be delusional. Players made the comment that they upped the skills training to 20 minutes a week last year. That is how high Lyon rates skills.


I think goad coaches would tweak their training based on where the team most needs help. Based on last year, I would spend a little more time on the positioning and transition from the middle of the ground to the forward line. I would probably try to build some of our midfielders up a little. So, where we practise skills, for me it would be more in game situations where we also drill into the forwards where to run, and the mids where to expect them and hit them up.

For the last 6 years our game has been deficient in the areas you highlight. It should not take 6 years for an elite AFL accredited coach to be able to see what your average beer drinking eagles hating supporter has been pointing out for 5 years.
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freo00, Burton said You Beaut

mac Members' Meeting - 27/Nov/2018 5 years 5 months ago #94

mac
The quote of Lyon has said time and time again, that he rates effort much higher than skills would send any company broke.
Our organization are really happy Johnny really put a effort into wasting company money to create a inferior finish/product which we will spend more money to rectify.
We will have a another representative around ASAP who will put in more effort.
Good luck with that.
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Raglan Matt said You Beaut

Rhufus Members' Meeting - 27/Nov/2018 5 years 5 months ago #95

Rhufus
Some of the best players of all time were slow and possibly even unfit. They gave expeditious use of effort but just about always had one thing in common, skills. Gerard Neesham, Gary Gibellini, Sam Mitchell, Greg Williams.

You look slow when you turn the ball over and you get buggered when you have to keep reversing and running the other way. Your players lose confidence and your forwards stop leading. the exhaustion leads to desperation and not keeping your feet. Its a vicious circle that ends in games like the Geelong game. I would suggest the Dockers are no more or less fit (within 5%) of any other club in the league. Its skills and pure ability.

Anyone who thinks the Toast won the flag because Simpson decided to focus at training on skills a bit more and not because years earlier Judd got poached and a young Josh Kennedy got swapped in, needs to reconsider their position. Skills training, except in the very young, rarely produce any meaningful change. Darren Jarmen was born that way. So was Dale Kickett.

You recruit skills, you train fitness and game plan with ball in hand. The rest is over complicating things.
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freo00 Members' Meeting - 27/Nov/2018 5 years 5 months ago #96

freo00
So you are saying that Jesse Hogan and the other forward line players should not practice kicking for goal because it complicates things .
If you are not fit you wont be in the team and if your skills aren't up to scratch you definitely wont be it the team .
The rest of the waffling was a bit hard to understand .

They should concentrate on all aspect of the game and if it gets a little complicated so be it , IMO.
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mac Members' Meeting - 27/Nov/2018 5 years 5 months ago #97

mac
Crickets Australia is having players rested as they have played their quota of batting and bowling time in games to be ready for the test game.
That's as bad than running off the ground after kicking a goal in the first minute of a game.
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Raglan Matt Members' Meeting - 27/Nov/2018 5 years 5 months ago #98

Raglan Matt
Rhufus, Neesham & co spent most of their training time honing their skills, THAT is why they didn't need to be as fit as the rest of the comp. We have a plethora of examples of players who were skilful enough to get drafted over the last 10 years, but because they have not spent time in the last 6 years honing their skills, look like they have no skills. Think about it from that angle.
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freo00 said You Beaut