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Rebuilding Myth Busting

TOPIC: Rebuilding Myth Busting

Drubbing Rebuilding Myth Busting 5 years 8 months ago #15

Drubbing
Status Quo you say?
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Corporal Agarn said You Beaut

hypen Rebuilding Myth Busting 5 years 8 months ago #16

hypen
All the equalization policies kind of work, Morgan. Maybe not as well as they should but they do work. To say the system disadvantages Fremantle on the basis that Hawthorn exploited free agency for a time is a stretch.

The clubs at the bottom of the ladder over the past few years have not made enough good footballing decisions enough of the time. If John Hook, Alistair Clarkson and Chris Fagan were at Fremantle for the past 10 years do you think we'd be in the same spot right now?

This is not the system, a fact of life or anything else unavoidable. To quote Cameron Scwabb, "you don't finish bottom in this competition by accident".
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The_Yeti, CaptSnooze, Raglan Matt said You Beaut

Morgan Rebuilding Myth Busting 5 years 8 months ago #17

Morgan
Nothing Hawthorn did affected Freo, except beating us in those finals. But in an equalised system some clubs – like Hawthorn – are more equal than others. They timed their run beautifully to be at the top of the ladder when FA came in and FA empowerment grew, and simultaneously the best talent was being funnelled to GWS and CG17 with less going to their competitors.

I agree that teams that finish bottom don’t do so by accident. It’s not obvious by reading Dockerland, but we haven’t finished bottom. We’ve won 36% of our games in the last two years despite a huge list turnover. If things turn around next year that would be a relatively shallow rebuild.

Perhaps the club didn’t make enough good football decisions, but a lot of the decisions the club made I thought were good at the time. I thought Bennell was worth a chance. I thought Simpson was a good pick. I thought Crozier showed a lot of potential. Balic clearly had potential. None of those guys worked out, and when you see the value of Dustin Martin or even Ben Cunnington (taken either side of Morabito), you can see how much it hurts when you lose someone like Mora at one of your only swings at a top 5 pick.

We took some swings and missed. With the way the system is set up, you don't get many chances.
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rogerrocks said You Beaut

hypen Rebuilding Myth Busting 5 years 8 months ago #18

hypen
That's all fair enough highlighting those instances but from 12 - 15 we had a chance to bring about 35 players (draft and rookies to the club).

We have about five from memory that are any good. That drafting period should be carrying the team now.

That's just footballing decisions. Too many misses. Forget free agency.
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The_Yeti, cletus, Corporal Agarn said You Beaut

The_Yeti Rebuilding Myth Busting 5 years 8 months ago #19

The_Yeti
The main reason that some teams are more equal than others is they do the job better.

Hawthorn manages their list far better than we have. They move on players who still have a bit left in the tank and replace them with younger versions and keep building. They also have a better coaching division.

Basically, they are doing things right. Rather than dismiss what they do by saying they are more equal, we would do better to copy what they do. You don't see successful teams roll over better than 50% of their list in 3 years and then use that as an excuse for poor performance.

This is not a shallow rebuild. Its a mess that somebody will have to sort out once the 'experts' have all been moved on.

Yes, talk about Hawthorn and then talk about what we can learn from they way they do things.
Egurls Suck!
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Raglan Matt, Burton said You Beaut

Morgan Rebuilding Myth Busting 5 years 8 months ago #20

Morgan
Hawthorn is based in Melbourne, plays blockbuster games at the MCG, has a history (including a recent history) of success, is the second biggest club in the AFL by members and has the best coach in the league. It's fair to say there are some institutional advantages at Hawthorn's disposal that aren't available to Freo. I'm not dismissing that the best club in the AFL runs its shop better than Freo, but to ignore those institutional advantages is also foolish.

I agree we did poorly in the draft from 2012-2015, but I don't think the Hawks did any better. Freo brought in Pearce, Landon, Weller, Tabs and Blakely as the best 5 players drafted in that time. The Hawks, over the same period, brought in Sicily, O'Brien, Hartung, Burton and Ceglar as their best drafted players in that time. For both clubs it falls away steeply after that. I'm not sure the gulf in talent between the clubs is due to drafting over that period.
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rogerrocks said You Beaut

The_Yeti Rebuilding Myth Busting 5 years 8 months ago #21

The_Yeti
I don't buy into this based in Melbourne, plays at the MCG as a measure of performance. If it was down to playing in Melbourne then why are the egurls outperforming us on and off the field. Its a cop out.

The 'institutional' advantages they have is better management, pure and simple. The manage their list better without hysterical over-reaction and have a far superior coaching roster. Thats their advantage. That and the fact that we operate very poorly by comparison.

Get the right system in place at Freo and we too could attract players. The fact that we don't says more about the way we operate than where we are. Again, the egurls are in the same town and are managed better on and off the field.

Its a bit rich saying its easier for them when we have been the sole architects of our poor performance.

When we function at that level and do worse, maybe then you can point to that but until then you can't
Egurls Suck!
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Burton said You Beaut

Raglan Matt Rebuilding Myth Busting 5 years 8 months ago #22

Raglan Matt
Wizz, you forgot us "the glass is the wrong bloody size" types in your analysis.

Everyone here is hung up on the myths at the moment. The greatest myth of the lot is the one that our drafting and recruitment is our biggest problem. It is not, it is the biggest symptom of our biggest problems. That we are not well administrated or well coached. Until those 2 problems are fixed, we will not succeed.
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rogerrocks Rebuilding Myth Busting 5 years 8 months ago #23

rogerrocks
I'm with Morgan on this. Yes, we could have done better, but we had some bad luck and the cards are stacked against us. And of course I'm annoyed at the club where they did things that were obviously wrong (at least to me).

But to ignore the benefits of not travelling, of having a queue of champion free agents knocking on your door, and of having serious clout in the AFL, that is ignoring reality. We all remember the umpires watching Ballas in the 2015 final against the Hawks. Just how strong is a club when they have the umps working for them?
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Docker by the Sea Rebuilding Myth Busting 5 years 8 months ago #24

Docker by the Sea
Yes that Ballas thing was a bit rich RR. Particularly when they had Hodge and Mitchell just as likely to be doing the Hodge and Mitchell stuff.
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Morgan Rebuilding Myth Busting 5 years 8 months ago #25

Morgan
So yeti, what you're saying is that when Freo were good they had just as much of a chance at recruiting marquee free agents as Hawthorn, Collingwood and Richmond do now? We had a consistent top 4 team, with (at the time) a top-line coach, and a dump truck full of cash to address a key forward need, and players openly laughed at our approaches.

Hawthorn around the same time casually picked up Brian Lake (one of the best full backs in the AFL and a Norm Smith Medalist against us), Gibson (B&F winner), McEvoy and Gunston to address key needs, on either FA deals or as value trades, because the player wanted to go to Hawthorn.

Do you reckon we should put our hand up for Lynch?
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rogerrocks, Rhufus said You Beaut

shane Rebuilding Myth Busting 5 years 8 months ago #26

shane
I wish we had been lucky enough to time a 4 premiership decade.
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The_Yeti, Raglan Matt, Corporal Agarn said You Beaut

Morgan Rebuilding Myth Busting 5 years 8 months ago #27

Morgan
You don't even have to win premierships. Collingwood just have to not objectively suck and blue-chip players like Hoskin-Elliott and Treloar ask to go there (with possibly Lynch or May on the way).
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Rhufus said You Beaut

OK chief Rebuilding Myth Busting 5 years 8 months ago #28

OK chief
I think the difference in any interstate club recruiting top Melbourne based players as opposed to Melbourne recruiting them is so simple that we must pay huge overs or sell Perth as a destination i.e. prettier girls (no argument), better beaches, better climate. Then the hard part! Shifting house, shifting wife/partner, lots of flying. The only difference the Melbourne players may encounter when swapping clubs is whether to turn left or right when leaving home.Unless we can ever persuade the powers that be to have some equalisation scheme for interstate clubs (on a sliding scale)we will
have to rely on home grown talent and far superior recruiting. In the West we face a far tougher task than other interstaters so you have to be better at all facets of the system . Like it or not the other mob have done far better than us even after ignoring their first two flags, or the taint of the third.
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Corporal Agarn said You Beaut
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