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TOPIC: He makes some good points

Suker He makes some good points 5 years 8 months ago #99

Suker
Let's get Tim Kelly back here as a skills coach (he can play for South in his spare time), De boer as football manager, (he will be allowed to play the odd game for South as well), Menegola as player welfare officer (he has experience at being shafted) and Jeff White as a boxing coach assistant (sparring partner, ie punching bag for the players).
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Corporal Agarn He makes some good points 5 years 8 months ago #100

Corporal Agarn
Any place for Barlow?
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guy smiley He makes some good points 5 years 8 months ago #101

guy smiley
Yeah... skills.

I uhhh... look, the rugby thing. I know... but hear me out. Dan Carter retired from NZ rugby and went to play in France for big money, as a lot of them do towards the end of their careers. He's the Test rugby points record holder, the Super rugby points record holder... etc blah blah. One of the best players ever, naturally gifted, all that. He's the playmaker and the goal kicker in the team. After setting those records and all the awards and cracksniffery that goes with it, having settled into a lucrative contract with no more to prove,

he still spends between 30-90 minutes alone after every training session practising his goal kicking. Because skills need practise. I read about that and then we hear that Freo are spending 20 minutes on skills training and I look at the scoreboard. I think the technical term is

facepalm.
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Bizkit, Raglan Matt, Burton said You Beaut

Suker He makes some good points 5 years 8 months ago #102

Suker
Of course Randolph...Barlow, how could I forget? He's done a business degree hasn't he...yep, CEO Barlow!
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Corporal Agarn said You Beaut

FDB He makes some good points 5 years 8 months ago #103

FDB
I like it. Roly can just do the pressers and collect his millions.
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Jason He makes some good points 5 years 8 months ago #104

Jason
At the end of the day it doesn’t matter what a host of paid talking heads in the media or keyboard experts think - it’s what ACTUALLY is going to happen that’s relevant. RL will be our coach next season and more than likely the season after that.

Despite the tidal wave of attacks upon it - my club is standing firm and continues to retain players and support the process decided upon several seasons ago.

I use the term ‘my’ club because no matter what, I’ll be supporting Freo until the day my purple jumper is pried from my cold, dead fingers. That’s regardless of who’s the coach, President, CEO, captain, players or boot studder. It’s how I’ve been since day one and it’s how I’ll stay.

We’ve had worse periods with worse results and far worse prospects for the future. At the moment we have a young list that is full of talent, a settled, competent Board and effective Administration (note: the Football Dept needs some work - maybe lots of work).

Is everything all shiny and rosy?? Of course not and I’ve never said as much. But it seems NOT jumping on the ABR bandwagon leads a few on here resorting to the same ‘shoot the messenger’ mentality they’ve claimed I’m guilty of - that is, I dismiss the ramblings of buffoons like Ling, Shaw & Cornes (which most of you hypocrites have done at one time or another over different ‘stories’ these blokes have written about Freo).

Maybe it’s a result of several real-life traumatic episodes I’ve survived that makes me realise this is a ultimately just a game played for entertainment and not the foundation of civilisation as we know it.

My footy team sucks at the moment. So what’s new?? Apart from a brief 4 year period from 2012-15 - that’s how it’s always been. Some want to don the purple-tinted glasses and revise history that we were anything but a joke and laughing stock of the competition until Lyon arrived. People keep rattling on about a record loss but didn’t Harvey set an AFL/VFL record for most number of consecutive games lost after being in front at 3 quarter time??

I remember that period all too well as I was paying good money to sit in a crap stadium, watching it all unfold before me. At least this year they’ve won 6 of the 9 home games I’ve made it too (missed GC & BrisVegas games fishing).

The difference this time is the club is standing firm in the face of (warranted) heavy criticism and sticking to the long game.

I’d love to say how much I’ll enjoy it when the worm does turn for us - with the same coach and players - and some will require a rethink of their position and behaviour though this period. But that would require objectivity and humility. Therefore none of the paid talking heads will admit it and I feel several one here won’t either.

But I also won’t stand idly by while a small section of so-called ‘supporters’ morph into a version of ‘tigers-eat-their-own’ that would make Richmond (not you, Shane) fans blanch.

IMHO, that has always been the difference between Dockers fans and the rest - we stick by our team no matter what because the rest of the footy world is against us.

Not anymore, it would seem.
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Morgan He makes some good points 5 years 8 months ago #105

Morgan
I don't quite understand the skills point.

AFL clubs have a finite amount of time with players. Almost all coaches complain about the limited time they are given to work on skills, because the trade-off is that you have to give up on fitness time or game simulations. I’m not sure how our training schedule compares to other teams. Until I know that, it seems premature to say we aren’t spending enough time.

But let’s use Matt Taberner as a test case. Let’s say you have 10 training hours a week with him. You need to work on his fitness and body, work on his understanding on where he needs to be on the field (in conjunction with other players), and work on his skills. For every extra hour you spend on his skills, you lose an hour on the other aspects.

Tabs has been a much better player with the extra muscle, and he’s covering the ground well, which is a requirement for a modern forward. He's also struggled with injury. So it’s hard to say fitness time is wasted.

Tabs still has a lot to learn about positioning, and the team transition from defence to attack still seems off. He’s parterning with Cox – who he’s only played a handful of games with, and they still tend to get in each other’s way. So it’s hard to say that time is wasted.

He still misses shots from 20m in front, so it seems his skills could use some work. So fair to say that time is wasted.

So, you can't make him spend more time at the club, what do you get rid of in those 10 hours?

The answer requires a nuanced understanding of how that time is already spent, what the rest of the league is doing, how much you can actually improve skills, whether you are better focusing on a skill in isolation or trying to execute them in game-simulations at pace – which wouldn’t be set aside as skills as such, but still improves them. You would also need to understand whether our skills deficiencies are because of fatigue or between the ears or because of poor team options – at which point fitness, strategy and game simulations might be more important.

The Dan Carter isn't really relevant. A rugby back probably covers about 7km a game, has 80 minutes of game time and breaks where they are standing around very little. If Carter was playing AFL, he’d be playing for 120 minutes and running closer to 20km, a lot of it at pace. The recovery time would be different. In that case, I reckon a fair bit of his time would be redistributed to fitness and recovery.

Dan Carter has chosen to put in the time to be the best he can be. Nat Fyfe posts videos of him doing the same. Even the Carter argument seems to be that it is players themselves who will themselves to be great.

And yet it’s Lyon’s fault for our players skills being bad. I just don’t get it.
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FDB He makes some good points 5 years 8 months ago #106

FDB
Jason - I'll paraphrase what I said on another thread.

Being critical of how the club is being run, the players drafted or the team coached is NOT anti-Dockers. Wanting things to be done better is pro-Dockers, straightforwardly.

Being completely uncritical seems to make you and Jezza and others feel like you're truer supporters. Well whoopee for you.

Maybe a club does need supporters like that, I dunno. But they sure as hell need ones who are just as rusted-on, but who'll also kick up a stink when things are going pear-shaped.
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The_Yeti, Corporal Agarn said You Beaut

FDB He makes some good points 5 years 8 months ago #107

FDB
Morgan - to address your Tabs example:

If I were an AFL player who regularly missed getable shots for goal, I would take it on myself, in my own time (as in Guy's rugby-guy example) to practice my set shots. Turn up to training early, stay back late, cycle to my local park with big sticks... whatever.
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The_Yeti, Morgan, Bizkit, Corporal Agarn said You Beaut

The_Yeti He makes some good points 5 years 8 months ago #108

The_Yeti
...and yet, Morgan, coaches who rate having good skills as an essential element of the way they go about doing things, seem to be the successful coaches.

Clarkson didn't just win 4 premierships in his career simply by coaching a Victorian club. Skills are rated as essential at Hawthorn and a major focus of their training. It seems to have worked out pretty well for him so far. I can't even remember the last time we beat Hawthorn.

Simpson rocked up to the egurls, said they were fit but their skills weren't good enough. So he went to work on them. We haven't beaten the egurls in nearly 4 seasons and don't look likely to change that any time soon.

I could continue to list examples but I think I've made my point.

You just don't get it? Neither does Roly and the results reflect that.
Egurls Suck!
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Raglan Matt, Burton said You Beaut

Wedge Antilles He makes some good points 5 years 8 months ago #109

Wedge Antilles
Jason, I think you need to take a look at some of the highlights from 2010 to jog your memory. We were incredible until Barlow snapped a peg, and the media was raving about us. We were absolutely decimated by injury in 2011 and Harvey didn't handle it well. Lyon was probably the right call at the time because of that.

But don't be deceived by everyone saying we have a rubbish list. That just lets Lyon off the hook. We have plenty of talent, it's just not Lyon-style talent, and because he only has a plan A, he isn't handling it well, just like Harvey.

Would Lyon have us playing like this?...

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The_Yeti, purple kit, Bizkit, Raglan Matt said You Beaut

Jason He makes some good points 5 years 8 months ago #110

Jason
WA, you’ve just made my point for me.

Prior to Lyon we were really good in maybe two distinct, isolated periods. Late 2006 when we won 9 in a row and made a Prelim and the start of 2010 when we started all guns blazing then limped into the finals on the back of a 110+ hiding to Hawthorn in the last round. Won a home final then got absolutely pantsed at the ‘G by Geebung the next week.

If you’re going to cut Harvey some slack because of injuries to key players in 2010-1, surely RL gets the same? No? Ok, let’s move on then.

Either side of those seasons we missed finals. It is a pretty universal measure of sustained success playing consecutive finals series.

So we never achieved success in 17 years across 5 coaches - none of whom had AFL Senior Coaching experience except I think Connolly did coach a win with Hawthorn as an Assistant when Clarko missed a game due to illness.

That some want to go back to a ‘strategy’ pre-2012 that was an utter and complete failure - as if this time around it will most definitely work - beggars belief.

As the old saying goes, those who ignore history are bound to repeat it.

I get the distinct impression that some in here would happily trade in any hope of winning a flag just so long as Lyon is sacked and we play an ‘attractive’ style of footy - regardless of whether we win games or not.

As someone else said earlier, isn’t a proper footy team all about winning, firstly, and then winning flags as the ultimate goal??
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guy smiley He makes some good points 5 years 8 months ago #111

guy smiley
I used the Carter training example to illustrate the importance of practise on maintaining and improving skills and the fact he's a champion head and shoulders above his peers who values that over and above his regular training emphasises the importance, in my mind at least.

We hear from Freo that skills aren't so important. I dunno whether that's just some sort of 4 dimensional spin and I've been sucked in or not but results tend to suggest the skills aren't up there and the best teams have more highly skilled players.

I'm not blaming RoLy there specifically although ultimately he's responsible for player performance so it's impossible to avoid the implication.

Earlier in the season I was watching a game on tv and Cox was kicking a few. The commentary team were getting excited about him and ( I can't remember who it was calling the game now) they were talking about his kicking action. He was skipping off the ground at the point of the kick and apparently, that's a sign of technical excellence and his attention to improvement. Skills improvement, then. I'm also under the impression that that is what Ballantyne works on with younger players within their training groups and is probably a factor in his contract renewal.

The fact I used a rugby player as an example and that they have differing physical regimes is kinda irrelevant when it comes to application of skills development within training for a specific game. If you want to get better and stay better you have to work bloody hard at it and that can mean outside of regular training hours. Every player should have an individual regime that they follow alongside the team training programs.

Across the league, there is a problem with disposal efficiency caused by the pressure style of play everyone favours. The way to beat that is linked to being able to move the ball quickly once you've got possession, obviously. Precise skills and being able to maintain them under pressure and fatigue.

Freo's skills have been poor for years. On one hand we hear the players aren't good enough and the list needs turning over. On the other hand we're told that skills training wasn't so much of a priority. I must be missing something in the translation here but I'm seeing some dots and sorta joining them up.
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Raglan Matt He makes some good points 5 years 8 months ago #112

Raglan Matt
I know I only played in some beyond the black stump bush competition, but our best coaches had us valuing our skills while we were doing fitness and simulation drills, and there were consequences for not keeping our skills up to par. Don't tell me AFL level players are not capable of doing the same thing.

To whoever it was that said skills cant be improved, look at the eagles example, and look also at Brad Hill, very skilled and 3 times premiership player at the Hawks, who many have been bagging over the last couple of years for his poor skills. Why did they drop off? Because Lyon does not value skills training as much as Clarkson?

Answer those 2 questions, Jason, Jezza and co.
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