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TOPIC: Giants v Freo

shane Giants v Freo 6 years 1 month ago #127

shane
I'm not sure I've read the theory that his game plan is for their to be no forwards in the forward line. Not since 2015. The problem is that he has no plan for the forward line. In it's place is just a note "TBC 2019".
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Corporal Agarn Giants v Freo 6 years 1 month ago #128

Corporal Agarn
We've never had a forward line structure capable of kicking a big score in the whole Roly regime consequently our percentage is always pathetic.
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The_Yeti Giants v Freo 6 years 1 month ago #129

The_Yeti
This whole 'Lyon's gameplan is not to have people in the forward line' is a strawman argument. It has never actually been raised by anybody and is being used because there is no real argument that protects our no excuses coach.

Lyon's gameplan doesn't specify nobody in forward line but it does specify that the forwards have to move down into the midfield the same way the mids have to move down to the back line to win the ball by having larger numbers. Its a flawed system. What is does mean is that we often have almost no ability to score.

Yesterday is yet another case in point. 56 entries into the forward 50 for 15 shots on goal. GWS had 53 entries in their forward 50 (3 less) for 31 shots on goal (double what we had) Its not a new thing. Ballantyne is almost always trying to mark balls coming in high when he being opposed by much taller players. Sure as eggs we will see it happen all over again when we play the slime with McGovern getting around 10 - 12 intercept marks because of the way we play. Its easy to predict because thats what happens each time we play them and Lyon has shown he is incapable of learning from his mistakes.

If the Roly brigade on here have any sensible response then lets see it and don't make up responses to argument that have never been made.
Egurls Suck!
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Quasimodo Giants v Freo 6 years 1 month ago #130

Quasimodo
The good

We lost by 31 points to a team that is a 2 time prelim finalist and is likely to go top 4 again this year on a ground none of the team had played on before except probably Wilson. Last year we would have lost by lots more, so improvement. Also we have 4 first year players who can play and the future through them looks bright. The backline has improved every game.

The bad

We still turnover a lot, often without too much pressure. Possibly a lack of experience in some players. We would have lost by more if they had kicked straighter.

The ugly

The lack of any forward other than Ballas in the forward 50 a number of times during the game, this cost us at least 4 goals. Whether it is game plan or anxiety our forwards are getting sucked up the ground and then not getting back fast enough to provide a lead or even a body in the forward 50 when we win the ball. We need to take risks play the forwards forward and hit them on the rebound. If I were Lyon I would tell Ballas (well he already does it) Tabener and McCarthy to stay in the fifty at all times. This gives two talls plus a ground player and McCarthy is pretty good off the ground too, to present when we win the ball. If teams want to roll the dice let them, if we score some on the rebound they will keep their guys back soon enough. We are winning the clearances so I think this could work. Simples.
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Jezza Giants v Freo 6 years 1 month ago #131

Jezza
Yeti, I'll respond by saying that the 2 games we've won thus far prove that when the connection between our mids and fwds are pristine, we score with ease. The misses by some when taking set shots last week prevented us from reaching the 100+ points. Sometimes it's as easy as that. I respect your knowledge for the game and enjoy your analysis but it really isn't that complicated.
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Rythum_man Giants v Freo 6 years 1 month ago #132

Rythum_man
I’ll have a go.
Try watching the game from a GWS perspective going forward they often had the same “ no one in forward 50”. It’s not as uncommon as you think, coaches want numbers at the footy and try to catch the oppo on the spread.
No point having blokes standing in the forward 50 when their opponent wins the ball at half back or wing unmanned.

Everyone is entitled to an opinion so I’m not bagging others even though I’m bored with same argument being trotted out against Roly.
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Morgan Giants v Freo 6 years 1 month ago #133

Morgan
It's not a straw man argument - I was responding to RM (post #90) - who suggests that players taking the initiative to go forward would be punished by Lyon.

Yeti, when you say Lyon's gameplan requires forwards to move down into the midfield the same way the mids have to move down to the back line to win the ball by having larger numbers, you've basically described modern football. But it's a question of balance and timing. Lyon considers that balance is off. I'd say most of us agree.

To get the balance right you need good coaching, talented players, smarts and continuity. Our forward line is devoid of all those aspects.

Coaching is also part of the problem. Lyon has said as much in the past. To say it's not the only problem shouldn't be a controversial statement, and yet it seems to be for reasons I don't understand.
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The_Yeti Giants v Freo 6 years 1 month ago #134

The_Yeti
It may not be complicated Jezza but its surely a step too far for some, including our no excuses coach. Its also not new as its been the subject of posts on Dockerland from Roly's first season but nothing has changed in all that time except for ridiculous strawman arguments that get trotted our and shot down year after year.

Sure other teams have empty forward 50s at time but they get their players back in time to have the ability to make leads and take marks. We simply do not. Ballantyne is not a tall marking forward. Playing both Tabs and McCarthy behind the ball means they cannot ever get back to the forward 50 in time to take marks.

As for your comment, Jezza, that the connection between our forwards and mids is pristine well thats just more nonsense much like your pre game posts before the Port and GWS games. The connection, like yesterday is verging on non existent. The difference in the games we won was playing people forward of the ball and against Port and GWS we did not do that. That criticism of Lyon is both accurate and self evident. The fact that people have to make up stuff to avoid acknowledging that is more proof that the Roly brigade have no real arguments.

I'll agree on your point about our failure to kick straight costing us goals but that goes back to another coaching failure - skills. But as the Roly brigade will tell us, skills are not that important, right?
Egurls Suck!
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Morgan Giants v Freo 6 years 1 month ago #135

Morgan
Speaking of straw men, who ever said skills weren't important (other than Damien Drum)?
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The_Yeti Giants v Freo 6 years 1 month ago #136

The_Yeti
Morgan, it is and always has been a strawman argument. Nobody has ever stated that the gameplan is not to have anybody in the forward 50 so please stop dragging that one out. We both know it has never been true.

As for describing modern football, again you are wrong. Other teams get people back because they play people forward of the ball. Many times, we do not. Lyon has always preferred to play people behind the ball hence our failure to generally kick big scores. The two game we have won this season, we have played people forward of the ball, like other clubs. That is modern football, not Roly;s version.

56 forward entries for 15 shots on goal says your version of 'modern football' doesn't hold up to scrutiny. GWS has 53 entries for 31 shots on goal. Thats what 'modern football' is. The difference is chalk and cheese and painfully obvious except to our coaching panel
Egurls Suck!
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The_Yeti Giants v Freo 6 years 1 month ago #137

The_Yeti
Morgan,

Lyon himself has stated he 'doesn't coach skills' Many of the Roly brigade on here have parroted his line that effort counts for more than skills and its a crap argument. Roly needs to change and coaching skills is the very first place to start.
Egurls Suck!
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shirtfront Giants v Freo 6 years 1 month ago #138

shirtfront
Going forward freo must do what so many other teams are forced to do to when chasing key position players....put up some decent offers to key forwards to buy them and secure a full forward and CHF position player....planning should be under way now!!! We dont have a key forward in our midst
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pollyanna Giants v Freo 6 years 1 month ago #139

pollyanna
Stingy defensive football wins you the game on GF day, creative and fluent offensive footy wins you members and moolah. That's the facts - the Tiggys just topped 90,000 members.

We've got the cattle - with the weird wind yesterday having Bradley the Yap and Langdon run/carry would have presented more options to moving the ball into the forward 50.
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Davo Giants v Freo 6 years 1 month ago #140

Davo
The challenge is to kick a winning score away from home. Only last week we scored 96 points, the week before 110 points.

Inside 50 efficiency:
R1 - 16/49 at 33% - lost by 50 pts
R2 - 32/56 at 57% - won by 16 pts
R3 - 33/59 at 56% - won by 28 pts
R4 - 15/56 at 27% - lost by 31 pts
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