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WAFL Finals

TOPIC: WAFL Finals

jimb2 WAFL Finals 6 years 7 months ago #155

jimb2
Whinging on Dockerland? Surely you jest?
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rogerrocks said You Beaut

Blue1red1 WAFL Finals 6 years 7 months ago #156

Blue1red1
I believe the correct term would be "Unhinging"
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Raglan Matt said You Beaut

freoboy49 Peel and FFC games 6 years 7 months ago #157

freoboy49
I know there is a bubble about Freo having too many squad players in Peel's teams for finals. It set me thinking about whether there is a formula that is fair to players in FFC, plus the teams elsewhere in the WAFL.
(I'm sure someone will be able correct me for any errors in all this.)
Given: Squad members need to have played minimum five games for Peel firsts or seconds during the season. There is no limit on how many AFL games they have played during the season..
These are the eligible players, with Peel games, AFL games, total.
Logue : 9 + 13 = 22
Taberner: 13 + 8 = 21
Strnadica: 20 + 0 = 20
Collins: 17 + 2 = 19
Griffin: 12 + 7 = 19
Darcy: 11 + 8 = 19
Ibbotson: 9 + 10 = 19
Cox: 9 + 10 = 19
Suban: 7 + 12 = 19
Sutcliffe: 6 + 13 = 19
Dawson: 15 + 2 = 17
Ryan: 6 + 11 = 17
Sheridan: 7 + 9 = 16
Pearce D: 8 + 7 = 15
Duman: 14 + 0 = 14
Nyhuis: 10 + 4 = 14
Deluca: 8 + 4 = 12
Bennell: 5 + 2 = 7

It's hard to argue that the players with 10 or more appearances for Peel should be denied the opportunity to play finals. In particular, those players have been arguably an important part of Peel's make-up for the season. Those 8 players are highlighted bold in the list.
I think it is reasonable for an upper limit on AFL games to be applied and I arbitrarily chose 8 as a cut off. That would cut out 9 players (Taberner 8, Darcy 8, Ibbotson 10, Cox 10, Logue 13, Suban 12, Sheridan 9, Ryan 11 and Sutcliffe 13). In the case of Logue, Suban, Ryan and Sutcliffe, they have played half or more of the H/A rounds in the bigs.
With the minimum five games qualification, and these two rules applied, the only 8 eligible players would be:
Collins, Dawson, Duman, Strnadica, Griffin, Nyhuis, Pearce D, Deluca and Bennell (the latter withdrawn from finals by Freo) — Peel might not be so dominant under this scenario, but would still have some useful contributors.

Another model is to say that any player with more games for Freo than for Peel is ineligible. That would rule out Ibbotson, Cox, Logue, Suban, Sheridan, Ryan and Sutcliffe, leaving 11 eligible players.

The WAFL is going to be under pressure to make further changes to the eligibility and we might as well offer them useful suggestions.
Contributions and reactions welcome.
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The_Yeti Peel and FFC games 6 years 7 months ago #158

The_Yeti
Heres a thought.

Stop changing the rules.

The deal was set. It was tightened up after last year and now some want it changed again.

I don't see your model adding anything to the system by cutting out the top tier of Peel's squad with no attempt to even up the playing field.

Why not just tell Peel they can only field 10 players. Would that be even enough for you?

The players playing have qualified under the same rules as every other team. Just stop trying to 'even up' a competition by cutting the legs out from under one of the teams
Egurls Suck!
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pollyanna, expat said You Beaut

shane Peel and FFC games 6 years 7 months ago #159

shane
Why won't anyone bloody well think of the children.
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larkin Peel and FFC games 6 years 7 months ago #160

larkin
Suban Ibbo and Dawsons kids will get the story told to them of how they played in a grand final in 2017
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Docker by the Sea Peel and FFC games 6 years 7 months ago #161

Docker by the Sea
My issue with you criteria FB is, what if the player that Freo thinks would benefit most by more games has played more than ten AFL games ie Logue. Just limit the raw number simple.
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Raglan Matt WAFL Finals 6 years 7 months ago #162

Raglan Matt
So do you have a contingency if Peel get an unprecedented run of injuries next season or the seasons after then? Do they front up 6 players short? Great look for the game that will be. Either stop mucking around with the rules whenever Peel are successful, and I remember the media taking great delight in ridiculing Freo players playing for Peel when Peel were at the bottom of the ladder, and it was not given priority by the media when East Perth were on top 2000-02 and 2014-16. or change the system to allocate AFL players across the comp.
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The_Yeti, shirtfront, Corporal Agarn, Rhufus said You Beaut

shane WAFL Finals 6 years 7 months ago #163

shane
Peel aren't successful. The 15 Fremantle blokes they're dropping into the finals are successful. And that's assuming your the sort of saddo who thinks AFL players winning WAFL premierships is a measure of success.

If Peel were unable to field a full team then you would adjust the rules to account for it. You keep adjusting the rules until you get the balance right. You don't pick a set of rules and then let it ruin the league because of some incorrect belief that everyone agreed to it.
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Bizkit, shirtfront said You Beaut

The_Yeti WAFL Finals 6 years 7 months ago #164

The_Yeti
The flaw with the argument that you need to constantly change the rules to get a desired result, Shane is clear when you look at the AFL doing exactly the same and failing at it.

The WAFL has rules to qualify for finals. It also has rules that cover squad sizes, salary caps (or player points)

What you are suggesting is treating one team different to the other teams.

The only solution that works for the WAFL is retaining the same eligibility rules and ending the alignment system.

But I would like to know why the integrity of the WAFL competition wasn't so important when Subiaco were able to buy extra players because they had a massive income boost from AFL bar sales. Everybody knew Subiaco was rorting the system but that wasn't important enough to mention. Ditto with East Perth winning all those flags.

You cannot claim to be supporting competition integrity while singling out one team for harsher treatment..

Besides none of this was unpredicted. It was known this was a likely outcome but the teams voted for it because it got them money. I see you are not advocating changing that part of the deal, just making it harder for Peel to field a team. Are you also advocating changing the rules to stop clubs playing senior players in reserve finals? Thats impacting the integrity of those competitions but doesn't seem to be worth mentioning. Only when Peel does it?
Egurls Suck!
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Raglan Matt, Rhufus said You Beaut

Raglan Matt WAFL Finals 6 years 7 months ago #165

Raglan Matt
So we are back to adjusting the rules every year until eternity. But my argument is more about the WAFL and local footy media seem to take a very selective approach to the way they administer the competition, and report the feelings of clubs and fans. As I said there was no great wish by the WAFL or outcry by the local media when East Perth/Eagles were killing the local comp. The only voice heard was that of the grass roots fans and some footy club presidents. The media and WAFL could see nothing wrong. Now in 2017, with Peel and Freo involved in success, the local media are kicking up a storm. They are hypocrites of the highest order. I do agree that it doesn't work, and something needs to be done. But the only solution (spread the talent) is not acceptable to the AFL clubs. So do we have a 2 team AFL reserves comp in WA? and extend the WA teams squads to allow that? { >)}
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shane WAFL Finals 6 years 7 months ago #166

shane
You're just talking nonsense. Peel have to be treated differently because they are different. They're aligned with an AFL club. The AFL club pays and trains the players for them.

And the teams didn't vote for it. They held a gun to their head and said do this or we'll do something worse to you. It was a negotiated settlement at best. A protection racket is probably more accurate.

The guts of it is this though. Peel are fielding a better finals team than they do for the rest of the season. That team has been significantly better than the best the rest of the WAFL can produce. It's not because of good recruiting, or smart management or anything that anyone else could compete on. It's not even because of a bigger budget. It's because they are predominately AFL ring-ins.

What will happen next is that the WAFL community will become disillusioned, volunteers drop off, players head to the country leagues, sponsors don't want a bar of it and then then it gradually collapses. Because no one wants to give their time and effort all year long just to see the big end of town roll in and take it away.

I don't think they should change the rules. The setup is there to help the AFL clubs. It's just a shame that Fremantle feel the need to exploit those rules in a time when they don't need it.

In a few years when Fremantle are playing finals they might have a situation where a player needs to play in the WAFL on their way back from injuries. They might want to give a few blokes a run on a bye weekend. They might want to drop someone but not have them sitting idele. Tightened rules might not allow that. They certainly wouldn't get any good will extended to them from the other clubs. The AFL clubs need the WAFL and the WAFL need the AFL clubs. Fremantle should be smart enough to see that you don't screw everyone over for no reason other than that you're allowed to.
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Bizkit said You Beaut

The_Yeti WAFL Finals 6 years 7 months ago #167

The_Yeti
I don't agree with you.

The deal went ahead because the WAFL clubs 'negotiated' annual payments up from 450k to 550k per club, without which most wouldn't survive. Since the AFL clubs came in. WAFL attendance has evaporated. Games that were impossible to get into, I can now walk up on the day and get a good spot. Trying getting into a Derby before the AFL clubs started up and now, easy peasy.

Thats the reality. The WAFL clubs either go with the AFL money or go under and they took the money.

The fact that the alignment clubs could dominated was well known beforehand. Many club presidents said so. Many fans said so. I said so. The alignment system was broken the first time around and its just as broken this time time.

The only real solution to preserve the WAFL integrity is to ditch it and parcel the AFL players among the clubs. That way, no team is massively advantaged or disadvantaged.

But I still cannot see why its suddenly a big deal because Freo is taking advantage of a situation. Others have in the past with no outcry.

Frankly, I hope Peel wins every single premiership until the WAFL is forced to end the alignment deal forever. If pain among the WAFL clubs is what it takes, then ramp it up but don't expect any club to suddenly not take advantage of an opportunity
Egurls Suck!
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Rhufus said You Beaut

dddocker WAFL Finals 6 years 7 months ago #168

dddocker
In the games I have watched I must say that many if not most of the non-AFL players have played very well and some credit needs to be given to them for the current success of Peel Thunder.
I believe the alignment principle has to continue since there is no AFL reserves competition. Keeping the players together is important for team cohesion and ethos. I'm not sure that any 'playing eligibility' formula is ever going to satisfy everybody but obviously fit AFL players if not selected in the seniors have to play somewhere and preferably in the same team. These players should be able to play in the lower grade finals if they have contributed to the success of the lower grade club.
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