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Liam Bartlett's Ramble

TOPIC: Liam Bartlett's Ramble

guy smiley Liam Bartlett's Ramble 8 years 1 day ago #57

guy smiley
Well, I expected that after filling pages with criticsm of Freo's poor drafting and recruiting Yeti,, you'd at least be able to offer up some suggestions of where they could have done better.

It's real easy to say things have been done badly. It seems to be a little harder to say how they could have been done well. That seems to be par for the course in sport generally, I reckon. It's always easy to point the finger.

As for when Freo might be a contender? Well, I reckon they looked a long way off contending in Lyon's first season really. A long way off. So things can often look worse than they are and things can turn around quickly as well. You have to be philosophical in some way about it. For instance, I reckon there might be a new jumper design in the pipleline. Philosophically speaking.
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addicted, DockerKnockers said You Beaut

walba Liam Bartlett's Ramble 8 years 1 day ago #58

walba
I'm not aware that Austin Robertson has an agenda but his analysis of the Dockers' drafting over the last six years is compelling reading (post 14 above). By the most basic corporate standards Bond and Lloyd should be moved on.
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Corporal Agarn said You Beaut

The_Yeti Liam Bartlett's Ramble 8 years 1 day ago #59

The_Yeti
Well, Guy, turn your comment on its head and actually discuss the points I made without the irrelevant issues that just deflect from what is important.

You say you disagree with the points I make. Fine.

Then you'll have no problems pointing out all the talls who are primed to take over from McPharlin, Pav, Johnson and dare I say it, Dawson. Point out the up and coming ruckmen who are being prepared to take over when Sandi pulls the pin.

I'll help you here. Pearce A is looking (so far) the goods to replace McPharlin but he's still a way off that point. Tabs to replace Pav...umm no different kind of forward.

I dare say if you cannot do that, you might consider the points I've been making about our recruiting.

The other point about out skills seems to be a no brainer. I haven't seen anybody try to argue our skills are good enough but thats a problem we've had for quite a while now
Egurls Suck!
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guy smiley Liam Bartlett's Ramble 8 years 1 day ago #60

guy smiley
Next you'll be telling me a $6000 toaster is good for low income earners.
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shane Liam Bartlett's Ramble 8 years 1 day ago #61

shane
You've brought a knife to a gunfight.
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guy smiley, addicted said You Beaut

The_Yeti Liam Bartlett's Ramble 8 years 1 day ago #62

The_Yeti
No, next I'll be wondering if you will ever address the issue or keep avoiding it like you do.

I've pointed out the obvious as have others, yet with those who disagree or claim they disagree, we get no factual material to support that disagreement.

I'll say it again, until you can point to the replacements for guys we have lost and will lose over the next year or two, and we all know that you can't, then the guys responsible for our recruiting haven't done a very good job. Any sensible review will support that argument....which may explain the lack of sense in the opposing arguments
Egurls Suck!
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demo1 Liam Bartlett's Ramble 8 years 1 day ago #63

demo1
Guy - since say 2010..I have only taken into account obvious selections and local players we should have known more about.
Jayden Pitt at Pick 20 - Jack Darling (WA) at 26, Luke Parker at 40
Viv Michie at 44 - Alex Fasolo (WA) at 45 would have been handy
Josh Mellington at 56 - Josh Jenkins at Rookie 12, Luke Dahlhaus at Rookie 22, Jason Johanissen (WA) at Rookie 39 and Jeremy McGovern (WA) Rookie 44.
Taken in the rookie draft was Gavin Roberts, Nick Lower, Ben Bucovaz & Tim Ruffles (BUST)

2011
Tom Sheridan 16, Hayden Crozier 21 & Alex Forster at 29 - We miss Elliot Yeo (WA) at 30, Brad Hill (WA) at 33, Shane Kersten (WA) at 34, Brendon Ah Chee (WA) at 45. This appears a unforgiveable triple mistake. Big get was Lachie Neale at 58 - seems recruiters got lucky here watching Alex Forster.
Rookies taken here instead of Kane Mitchell & Tom Lee who trained with us were Haiden Schloithe at Rookie 26, Sam Menegola Rookie 44, Jordan Wilson-King at Rookie 61. Credit to Lee Spurr at Rookie pick 8 however.

2012
Josh Simpson at pick 17 instead of Marco Paparone (WA) 23, Mason Shaw (WA) 30, Kamdyn McIntosh (WA) 31, Tim O,Brien at 28, Could have got Simpson much later IMO.
Tanner Smith at 36 and Max Duffy at 39, Jack Hannath at Pre Season 8, Alex Howson at Rookie 25 all appear big misses but not a overly strong draft. Callum Sinclair at Rookie 12 and Jake Lloyd at Rookie 16, Adam Oxley at Rookie 35 and Dean Rampe at Rookie 37 were good gets but basically a complete waste of a draft year.

2013 Apeness is still a work in progress (despite my comments on other threads) Rory Lobb taken here at pick 29 would appear a better option and if recruiters watched him as much as I did may have made a different decision to take the local likeable fella. Alex Pearce at 37 and Brady Grey at 58 appear great selections. Ben Brown at 47 may have been better than Grey here...
2013 Rookie Draft was a absolute disaster.
Michael Wood at 16, Tom Vandeleur at 32, Jacob Ballard at 47 are all no longer at the club.
This is where Mitch McGovern (WA) undrafted, should have been rookied if nothing else to correct the mistake of ignoring many good judges and not recruiting his brother Jeremy..

2014 Draft was ok but leaving Jake Lever at 14 and taking Lachie Weller at 13 seems an urgent need was ignored in favour of another midfielder.
2014 Rookie Draft - We may have been better off taking Nathan Broad (WA), Marcus Adams (WA), Mitch Brown (Geel) all undrafted instead of re-drafting Tanner Smith at Rookie 31 and Sean Hurley at Rookie 48.
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guy smiley, walba said You Beaut

RideoftheVagaries Liam Bartlett's Ramble 8 years 1 day ago #64

RideoftheVagaries
Hindsight recruiting is pretty easy and I'm not sure there were too many good judges strongly pushing the case for Jeremy McGovern at the time (he went in the rookie draft for starters, so not many recruiters were all that taken by him back then), but there were sentimental reasons.

There has been a stronger focus on Eastern states, which I think has meant we've missed out on some we might not have otherwise. The ones you reckon they had more reasons than not were a pre-WC Darling (Pitt), Hill (Forster) and possibly Lever (although they may just have rated Weller so much higher).
;p
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Raglan Matt Liam Bartlett's Ramble 8 years 1 day ago #65

Raglan Matt
Yeti while I agree with a lot of what you say about our current deficiencies, I don't agree the cupboard is bare because of recent draft decisions, as posted earlier our problems go back to 6 to 8 yrs ago. We have some talls coming through now, but there is no-one in the bracket between Pav, Luke and Johnno and what we have now. Taberner and Pearce are expected to deliver the performance of a 100 to 150 game player, and while Pearce is going ok anf Taberner starting to deliver, the expectation on them is a bit unreasonable.

Your statement that we should disregard 2015, as the rules have changed this year is delivered with a lashing of 20/20 hindsight. Up until September last year the squad we had was consistently playing finals. When did you know the rules were going to change?

The claim that the rule changes have brought more attractive footy is somewhat selective as well. I have seen some pretty ordinary footy from the 8 rounds so far, and don't think that that aspect will ever change, as coaches and players will always find ways to drag the game to where they want it.
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ChewyBoot Liam Bartlett's Ramble 8 years 1 day ago #66

ChewyBoot
Re: Lobb. In 2013 we already had joke threads about the number of ruckman on our list so recruiting Lobb at pick 18 would have added to that.

Part of the issue might be, with one WAFL feeder club into the AFL system - its actually quite difficult to give all these players proper development. Kepler, Moller, Griffin, Clarke, Sandilands, Hannath and Gumbleton were already on our list for 2014.

GWS really recruited Lobb earlier than expected as a ruckman because their stocks were low - but hat's off to them for developing him as a forward. Lobb was the ruckman that Goldstein established an AFL ruck tap record of 80 against last year - around the same couple of weeks that Sandilands tapped it 69 times against Jacobs and 70 times against Gold Coast. Apeness had played forward and kicked some goals, and was a couple of years younger.
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Raglan Matt said You Beaut

The_Yeti Liam Bartlett's Ramble 8 years 1 day ago #67

The_Yeti
RM,

Cant disagree with any of what you are saying. I think we may be actually saying similar things in a perhaps a different way. The gap between Pav, Luke and Johnno and Pearce A, Tabs is in fact the issue. It was identified by posters better than me years back but not apparently by those with the ability to actually do something. The expectations on Tabs and Pearce are far too high and I agree its unreasonable but we're painted into a corner here.

Getting KPPs via the trade table is the only short term solution but we haven't been terribly successful there. In fact my major criticism of Bond's management is the way he has applied the list management model. Its flawed.

The idea was 'get the best available' in the draft and fill up on KPPs via trading. We concentrated on on a particular type of player to the exclusion of a balanced recruiting approach. The 'best available' player is generally a midfielder as they develop faster than talls. So we got a bunch of those each year but failed to attract the KPPs we need. Hence our current position.

Now, Bond may have had a workable plan except for the fact it didn't work and that approach should have been abandoned much earlier.

If you have the idea and the idea doesn't work and leaves the club in a deficient state, you can't avoid copping your share of the responsibility.

The comment about 2015 was to stop the argument that because we had a great 2015 with the same players, it isn't the players that are our problem. Its a flawed argument. I also agree with your comment about not seeing the effects of the changes beforehand. I dont claim any special ability and the effects have been surprising but it has exposed those players without the skills needed to operate under today's rules.

I don't think the changes have brought more attractive footy, so we also agree on that butthats the AFL's line and we all know the AFL isn't above manipulating things to fill their own agenda. The AFL has already said that those who don't fit in with the 'more attractive' game will be fighting the administration, the rules and the umpires. Thats just says it all.

The changes however have exposed what has been known for a while, that our skills are not as good as they need to be and our legs aren't as quick as they need to be. Thats partially down to Bond and his drafting team picking the type of player for a different game plan and partially down to the coaches for failing to address the skills deficiencies.

Up till now, we have prized effort over ability (thats a very rough way to put it but you get my point) Now we need ability and the coaches can't escape scrutiny.

Also RM, the cupboard isn't completely bare. Its thin and under developed though and I think we would agree on that.
Egurls Suck!
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Raglan Matt said You Beaut

Ricco Liam Bartlett's Ramble 8 years 1 day ago #68

Ricco
I think i am a rational sort of guy. For the hell of it, I wanted to go back through the arguements being made and post my thoughts - mainly as a type of therapy for myself.

With few exceptions, we've put game time into players with limited skills.
I think this is the most valid and appropriate criticism that I have heard levelled at the club. No 2 ways about it, there are players in the current team that would have been moved on at others


We haven't recruited talls in time to replace our aging stars.
I disagree. We have recruited talls, we just haven't recruited the right ones, or they haven't developed the way we would have liked. I have posted many times, but with our draft position, emergence of the 2 franchises, I'm not sure we could have actually done anything different or better. I feel the criticism about the recruitment of talls is actually unfair / unwarranted because I don't think we could have done much better given the system we were in.

(Examples to back up my point - Clark a few years ago looked great, now not; Taberner I thought started out well, jury still out; Gumbleton at the time I thought was a great get, obviously not)

I also believe that our gap isn't KPP's, it is quality midfielders who can deliver lace out to their team. The people I would put in this bracket are Hill, Walters and Mundy. That is all. Far from being a great team.

I applaud Demo for being the first person who has actually tried to document the "misses". Despite all the teeth nashing, that is the first I have seen someone actually point out what they would have done differently.


We lack the skills needed to beat good sides
Obviously - I actually think this is something that the coaching staff should be held to account for. You CAN train good skills and clearly they haven't.


Interestingly (and I didn't think about this before this post), but I think most of the gaps in the past few years are at the feet of the coaching department, not Bond. And that doesn't sit well with me, because I think (or thought) Roly is a good coach.

So here is my opinion:
(i) I think we have a good coach taking us forward. I back the club for locking in RTB.
(ii) I don't believe key forwards are that critical in the modern game. Conversely, I believe key defenders are. I think Alex Pearce is good, but from what I have seen he still has a long way to go to get to a McPharlin level. Having said that, from seeing Dawson eek out a career on limited skill sets, I think we will be OK.
(iii) We are still short 1-2 quality midfielders. We get continually spanked in the clearances. I hope that Neale will stay and turn into a Sam Mitchell type. If he doesn't we need someone that can play that role. Dare I say it, even a Priddis who gets in and gets the ball out. I'm also hoping that Bennel fixes his baby cows to be that skilled outside run that we desparately need.
(iv) In general, I believe the club is well run. We have a stable team and this is just a critical success factor as many others. The teams that have dominated the last 20 years are the ones with resources at their disposal, not the strugglers of the likes of the Bulldogs, North etc. (I still disagree with the jumper change though). I wouldn't be rushing to sack any combination of the Steve's, Bond or others.

My 2 cents.
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demo1, guy smiley, addicted, rogerrocks, DockerKnockers, somethingstupid said You Beaut

blockerhall Liam Bartlett's Ramble 8 years 23 hours ago #69

blockerhall
Never fear, the ETAF is here

While I'm here: "...strugglers like North Melbourne or the Bulldogs"

Kinda not the time to point out their place on the ladder i guess? maybe Culture or Spirit does actually count for something?
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The_Yeti Liam Bartlett's Ramble 8 years 23 hours ago #70

The_Yeti
Yeah Ricco,

I've already listed the coaches and the skills or lack of them but I think you are wrong about the impact of key position players. Without demeaning the importance of a good mid field, the impact of KPFs can be huge.

Take a look at how far the slime get with Darling and Kennedy. Yeah fine they duck, dive and generally demean football but that pratt Kennedy had 5 by quarter time and effectively killed the game. I can't agree with you that KPFs are not critical. They are.

Of course, better delivery up forward would be a huge difference but you need talls up there to take the marks and then kick straight. We are a little lacking in that regard as well.
Egurls Suck!
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