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The New Game Plan Excuse

TOPIC: The New Game Plan Excuse

Morgan The New Game Plan Excuse 8 years 1 month ago #15

Morgan
I love a good rant, but they're better when they are rooted in fact.

Who are the slow midfield types we've drafted in the last five years? Other than Blakely, who people seem to rate, I can't see any. All early picks have been for quick, skilful players, or tall blokes. In other words, exactly what we need.

Did you see Roly's comments post game? I think he has squarely put this on the coaching staff.

For players to perform at the elite level, they need to be able to play instinctive football. I don't think its a stretch to say that if you try to change what that instinct is, the players would second guess themselves. Yes, you can work on that in pre-season, but everything in life is about getting your reps. You can't simulate real opposition and real games in pre-season.

As for Roly's loyalty to good servants of the club, I'm not sure it's exclusively a detriment. You need players to buy into a team concept. If you hold the sword of Damocles over each of the players heads, they'll start chasing their own kicks. We have been at out best in the last few years when we have played as a disciplined team. We've been reasonably successful. You don't just dump the whole team after losing a couple of games. Holy made the point in the presser: there's not a heap of players banging down the door. It looks like we're off the pace this year, so I'm sure you'll see the the decisions break the kids way over the season, but frankly, I'm glad we don't have a coach that throws in the towel after a few off performances.

As for Bond, he's a duffer. But he's operating in a system stacked against teams staying at the top. Most of the criticism seems to be that he hasn't done enough to bring elite talent through the door, without any real analysis of how he was supposed to do that. Sydney gets the academy, Hawthorn is the glamour club in Melbourne, Geelong built a list through father/ sons (as the Bullies are doing now), and West Coast sucked / tanked to top up a strong list. Those options weren't available to us, so I'm always keen to hear what Bond should have done. The problem is, those arguments tend to come from people who think players like Crozier or Hannath have some value as trade propositions, or that Freo is an attractive free agent destination. They don't, and we're not.
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The_Yeti The New Game Plan Excuse 8 years 1 month ago #16

The_Yeti
Speaking of facts, Morgan, you should try getting acquainted with some.

We, and by we I mean the match committee, ignore the known issues with the players they recycle week in and week out. Mzungu, Mayne, Suban, Ibbotson, Pearce C, Barlow for example all seem to share the same features. They give great effort but kill our momentum time after time with basic skill errors. So we drop two of them and replace them with two of them. Rinse and repeat. They don't improve but if you hang around long enough you get picked again..

That list of players should be moved on ASAP. They've had more opportunities to address their issues and each of them has completely failed to do so.

In a well managed, well coached team, if you do not correct your flaws, you get moved on. At Fremantle, they get recycled and continue to make basic skill errors.

As for slow mid fielders, look at that list. Mostly mid fielders, mostly snails. Mundy and Fyfe aren't speed demons either but are stronger so they can often bullock their way through. As for speed, we have Pearce D (prone to errors), Hill, Neale is not too bad. Hopefully, eventually we might be able to add Morabito and Bennell. Actually when we add Bennell the difference will be immediately obvious and take some of the focus away from the snail.s

Again I'll repeat the bleeding obvious for the kool aid drinkers who want the facts. Our drafters use the excuse of best available player to justify concentrating on mid fielders. Simple evaluation tells you mid fielders shine early because talls take longer to develop. we should have been picking talls years back but under Bond we pick the best available. Its a stupid flawed circular argument.

None of this is new. Its been raised by myself and many others season after season and apparently the only ones who can't see the obvious are the coaches.

I stand by my comments as I've stood by them for several years. A change in gameplan simply does not impact basic skills. It might impact decision making but not missing a target 2 meters away by hand or presenting as an inability to kick to a target. It just does not.
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darthmarto The New Game Plan Excuse 8 years 1 month ago #17

darthmarto
I agree.

But I also want in on whatever "cash for comment / paid by the word" deal you've scratched out with Richmond.
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rogerrocks The New Game Plan Excuse 8 years 1 month ago #18

rogerrocks
Harvey was sacked because the players didn't know what they were supposed to be doing. And Ross will be sacked if he and the other coaching staff can't come up with a game plan that the players can and do execute. And Ross will drop players who can't execute the plan better than the the guys playing at Peel.

The thing that makes everything so easy for Ross and the players is that the other 17 teams don't really care about winning. Each and every one of them (bar Hawthorn) were happy to lose to us last season.

I'll give Ross and the players a bit more time before I sack the lot of them.
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darthmarto The New Game Plan Excuse 8 years 1 month ago #19

darthmarto
Does Bond get sacked for not recruiting what we need?

Coz that was about 3+ years ago.
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hypen The New Game Plan Excuse 8 years 1 month ago #20

hypen
Morgan you really need to get over this defeatist attitude you have to our drafting situation. There are two kids running around for Hawthorn, Seglar and Scilli who drifted out big time in the draft. Adams not getting on our list is a disgrace. Same with Kirsten. Same Darling and McGovern.

Its entirely plausible that we can bring capable players to our club and finish top four...its the norm over east.

Our list is a short term mess.......for all that talk of fitting a management model we don't have any KPP.

And we dont have a credible long term replacement for 31 yo ruckman. That is astonishing.
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The_Yeti The New Game Plan Excuse 8 years 1 month ago #21

The_Yeti
You'll go hungry, Darth.

Richmond hands out dollars like Margetts hands out frees to Walters. :(
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Morgan The New Game Plan Excuse 8 years 1 month ago #22

Morgan
Hypen, i just think counterfactuals are important. It's no good saying we 'could' have done better. If you want to lay the slipper into Bond, you need to demonstrate what he should have done instead. Even with hindsight, it's hard to say what picks or moves he should have made.

Take your very own examples of Bond's failings. Let's start with Scilly. We took Apeness, A Pearce and Grey with our picks before Scilly was taken. Apenss has been luckless with injuries, and A Pearce is a gem. People like Grey, but we haven't seen him yet. So, I don't think you can say Bond et al dropped the ball there. In time, that draft could be very good for us. Even right now, would you trade A Pearce for Scilly? Maybe, maybe not.

Ceglar is an adequate football player, and not much more. Hawks got him in the same rookie draft as we got Taberner. Given we've got Sandi, Griff, Hendrix, Hannath and Apeness as ruckmen, I'm not sure Ceglar was a better punt than Tabs.

Yeti, the blokes you mention - Mzungu, Mayne, Suban, Ibbotson, Pearce C, Barlow - aren't exactly rolled-gold talent. The highest pick of that lot was Suban, a second rounder. They are a mix of late draft picks and rookies. On balance, we shouldn't be relying on those players to be stars. That said, some of them played like very good football players for a little while. But they all have weaknesses, and as the game has sped up, they have been exposed. So, my question, of how does Bond get talent in the door, is relevant. If you aren't gifted high picks, academy players, father/sons or COLA exemptions, how do you add talent to the list? Free agents have tended to go to Victorian teams, and, annoyingly, to other very good teams. We haven't landed a marquee free agent. You could blame Bond for that I guess, but I think that's a bit harsh. Do yourself a favour, and name the best free agent to sign with a non-Victorian team without the assistance of an increased salary cap. The answer could be D Pearce (although that depends on how P Ryder goes after his suspension).

It's possible that Bond could have done better, but it's not conclusive.
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hypen The New Game Plan Excuse 8 years 1 month ago #23

hypen
My point was having a late first pick as a start position in the draft doesn't prohibit you from building a list as you have constantly alluded to.
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shane The New Game Plan Excuse 8 years 1 month ago #24

shane
I'm a big believer in the difference between winning and losing a game is contested marks. For all the planning and theory that goes on in the box, when a game is on the line, the game is usually won because one bloke was able to beat another bloke, or a couple, and take a grab that could have been anyone's.

You can't organise it. You can't draw it on a whiteboard. You can't analyse the whys and hows after the event. It comes down to one person executing a skill better than another person.

Chris Bond is a poor mark for his size. He has never once exceeded expectations. You might be able to argue on each occasion that it would have been difficult for him to do better but the complete record of never having a win, never coming out the better of circumstance, tells me that we need someone better in his position.
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Corporal Agarn The New Game Plan Excuse 8 years 1 month ago #25

Corporal Agarn
You say you like to deal in facts but there definitely is some fantasy in that last paragraph of your first post Morgan.

So the only reason these clubs have done well is the following?

Sydney-the academy. Old has an academy so therefore Brisbane should very as good as Sydney.

Hawthorn is a glamour club. They attract free agents because they want to play in a premiership yes, but as mentioned previously 7 players from the last two weeks have played 35 games or less. You make a glamour club(whatever that is) I would imagine by creating a winning culture which requires good recruiters. They've been up for yonks and still manage to trade or pick better than us.

Geelong and WB are only doing well because of father and son rule. There could be more, but who besides Hawkins, Wallis and Liberatore have been successful?

So the fact that in Bond's time the only players who he's recruited that would likely be of interest to other clubs are Neale and a promising but still developing Pearce. That's through the draft and trades.

Then again the dictionary definition of a duffer is an incompetent or stupid person, so maybe you really don't believe Bond's done a good job after all.
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Flag_2005 The New Game Plan Excuse 8 years 1 month ago #26

Flag_2005
In the last 5 years 3 of our first round draft picks have either had a heart condition leading to early retirement, 4 knee reconstructions or significant knee and other injuries allowing him to play one AFL game. The latter player arguably outshone Tom Boyd when he went down injured in his U/18 year. Name me another team that has had that sort of luck with recent first round draft picks.

I'll give the critics of Bond (and they should include Lloyd) Marcus Adamd though. I can't believe we didn't snare him. Perhaps Sam Collins will be a better player.
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Docker by the Sea The New Game Plan Excuse 8 years 1 month ago #27

Docker by the Sea
Great debate. I can see the merit in what Morgan has to say. I also don't neccessarily believe that this is purely the domain of Bondy, and other people would have input into drafting and trading
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Walter the baker The New Game Plan Excuse 8 years 1 month ago #28

Walter the baker
Here's a fair theory

m.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/afl-2016-it...20160410-go322p.html
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