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TOPIC: Tex Walker

Docker by the Sea Tex Walker 6 years 2 months ago #15

Docker by the Sea
I haven’t seen the incident for Hooker but I tlremain steadfast in my conviction that all punches should be suspended. It is unnecessary and IMO inherently weak in today’s football, with the person being struck unable to reciprocate.
Fines are also unfair in there enforcement as I am sure $1500 is a lot easier for Hooker to find than Bailey Banfield.
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Morgan Tex Walker 6 years 2 months ago #16

Morgan
Should Hooker really be suspended for that? A bloke came in fast and hit him in the head, so Hooker won a free kick. He was a bit aggrieved at the illegal contact he'd received so took a little swing in retaliation and missed. The umpire saw the swing and reversed the free kick. And the MRP saw it, but because there was no contact charged him with misconduct because, quite logically, for there to be a striking charge there needs to be a strike.

Isn't this the system working?

You can't legislate out competitive men getting shirty when playing a physical game. You can't also just decide to invent a charge of 'attempted striking' three weeks from the finals because an Eagles player took a wild swing behind play the week before.

As for Nyhuis/Walker, I thought they were similar tackles, which is why they received similar suspensions. The line between careless and negligent for dangerous tackles is pretty blurry. I thought what saved Walker from the negligence ruling (and the extra week) was that relative to the Nyhuis tackle Walker looked like he was releasing the tackle before Kelly hit the ground, and it happened in the field of play (as opposed to Nyhuis completing the dangerous part of the tackle over the line). Walker was probably a bit lucky though.
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The_Yeti Tex Walker 6 years 2 months ago #17

The_Yeti
Interesting summation of the Walker tackle, Morgan but unfortunately what you said was completely wrong.

There are only 2 gradings available to the MRO - careless or intentional. Negligent was removed some time ago.

It should have been graded the same as Nyhuis but instead of grading it as severe (Nyhuis), the MRO downgraded it to high impact. Considering the relative outcomes, it should have been graded as severe but then the MRO isn't exactly famous for being consistent.
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Dockermus Tex Walker 6 years 2 months ago #18

Dockermus
"Probably a bit lucky" is a statement that really goes to the heart of the issue, because we've all seen how, just to balance the 'system' up, players can sometimes be a bit unlucky too. Sifting through the details in order to rationalise each and every MRO decision wouldn't be necessary if the 'system' didn't seem so bloody arbitrary.
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Mushroom Tex Walker 6 years 2 months ago #19

Mushroom
As men, we all get shirty. Over many things. This doesn't make it acceptable to take swings at people willy-nilly.

And the acceptability of a willy-nilly swing should not be whether it connects or not.

If you say that swinging arms at people, fisted or otherwise, is fine when you miss, you are condoning and conditioning people to thinking there is a degree of okayness in throwing a punch. This was the whole west coast defence in the Brayshaw case. It's wrong. It's not acceptable. It must be penalised so as not to happen.

You cucumbers who talk of the three toxic words "duty of care" in other cases. Well, there you have it right in front of you.
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The_Yeti Tex Walker 6 years 2 months ago #20

The_Yeti
Thats hard to argue with, Mushroom.

If you are serious about that 'duty of care' then you should be penalising every punch, not just the ones that connect. Otherwise you have a situation where those who were crap at committing an act get away unsanctioned. That is absurd.

You should still be taking into account all of the circumstances surrounding a punch though to determine the appropriate sanction and unlike the AFL, that should include examining the act not the outcome.
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Morgan Tex Walker 6 years 2 months ago #21

Morgan
You're right Yeti. I watched the tackle instead of reading the Nyhuis report. It’s hard to see what the difference in impact is. Grey was out for longer and looked like he was dead, but it's hard to parse the two tackles for impact. Maybe it came down to the medical report. Port seemed particularly shirty about the Nyhuis tackle.

Mushroom, for better or worse the AFL has taken on the language (and elements) from the law of negligence. There are four elements, and they seem to be applied in the AFL as follows:

i. Duty - All players owe a duty of care to other players;
ii. Breach - The player breached that duty by acting or failing to act in a certain way;
iii. Causation - The player's actions (or inaction) caused another player harm or injury; and
iv. Suspension - The other player was harmed or injured as a result of the other player's action, and an assessment of the degree of that harm is made).

Where there is no impact or injury to another player, there is no offence. The AFL instead relies on a broad ‘misconduct’ charge which leads in a fine.

What you appear to be asking for is a suspension for any breach, regardless of whether harm is caused or not. In a game as physical as footy, I'm not sure how that works without players missing games all over the place. If you also hold the view that Freo is on the receiving end of worse outcomes than other teams, I'm not sure adding suspensions for any player not acting in an appropriate way would help Freo. Ballas would never have made it to 100 games.

Without all four elements, you add a great deal more incidents being brought before the MRP/MRO, with only a subjective 'did they act in a bad way' test. It would be chook lotto.
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Docker by the Sea Tex Walker 6 years 2 months ago #22

Docker by the Sea
Obviously the interpretations need to remain the same for the rest of the season. I have no issue with introducing a penalty of say 1 week for throwing a punch 2 weeks if it connects and upwards from that point.
I would argue that this would virtually eliminate striking from the game at the top level. I feel completely different about this than the penalties being handed down for actions that occur in the act of playing football. I would be a lot happier with some of these tackles being suspended if umpires were paying free kicks during games for the same tackle.
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Morgan Tex Walker 6 years 2 months ago #23

Morgan
That is certainly one approach DbtS, and I’m not trying to be pedantic, but what constitutes a punch? It is any strike with a clenched fist?

If that’s the case, is a jumper-punch a punch? What is a swinging arm without a fist? What about a forearm shiver to the ribs? Are they the same, or lessor charge? What about a hard push to the face with a palm?

The current approach isn’t perfect, but it starts from a position you shouldn’t try to hurt your opponent, so if you do, and what you did was outside the rules, you are in trouble – and worse trouble depending on the severity of the impact.

The alternative approach is to go around looking for things that might have hurt someone had the circumstances been different. If you’re worried about subjectivity now, imagine the subjectivity when someone like the MRO has to decide whether something was a punch, and whether there was contact enough to say ‘it connected’.

There just aren’t that many players going around throwing punches to justify new ‘attempted punch’ or ‘slightly grazed him’ suspensions.
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Mushroom Tex Walker 6 years 2 months ago #24

Mushroom
I think there are enough.

You can’t go saying it doesn’t happen much straight after saying there’d be so many cases that flocks of chickens will be put to slaughter by the tribunal for doing it.

It is very clear when a player attempts to maliciously hit another using his arm or the digits joined to it. I can’t believe you would not favour an approach to stamp this out and don’t see a connection with connection only being a consequence of the act of malice - said act being forceful and intentional movement of a limb toward another bloke in an aggressive manner with potential to do harm if it hits.

It’s certainly clearer than the accident of a player’s head hitting the ground during a well executed tackle that prevented him from disposing of the ball legally and happens near on 100 times per game without incident.
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rogerrocks Tex Walker 6 years 2 months ago #25

rogerrocks
So what do we all think of the 3 weeks Brown from St Kilda got for his late bump on an unsuspecting Saad?
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Raglan Matt Tex Walker 6 years 2 months ago #26

Raglan Matt
When part of Gaff's defense was that he had already jumper punched Brayshaw, and was trying to do so again but missed, it tells us 2 things. Firstly, that the players also think the fines are a joke, and are prepared to pay them if it means they can keep taking cheap shots at opponents, while hoping for a retaliation free kick. Secondly that a punch that misses it's target can be very damaging, so we should be punishing the attempts that miss the intended target. By the way, what happened to the charge of attempted striking?
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Docker by the Sea Tex Walker 6 years 2 months ago #27

Docker by the Sea
RM I think that was amongst the rules that needed to be changed to improve the game.
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Raglan Matt Tex Walker 6 years 2 months ago #28

Raglan Matt
Well that has turned out well, hasn't it.
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