Now we are getting to the heart of the issue which is not what our players should or shouldn't do but the way in which umpires are starting to impose themselves on the game. No longer are they there to officiate and interpret the rules fairly and without prejudice. These days they making themselves visible and influencing the outcomes of certain games.

And why, we ask ourselves, is this so?

Are they weak, insecure little individuals seeking their 15 minutes of fame on a weekly basis or is there something more sinister afoot?

Personally, I rather like the conspiracy theory. Umpires may not be accepting bribes per se but there is a lot of money at stake on these games. Would it not be advantageous for some person or organisation to make sure of the right result?

For instance you wouldn't want 14 placed on the ladder knocking off the current front runners for the cup, or beating the fast-paced, unbeaten Doggies, would you?

Gentlemen of the jury, I rest my case.

Wow. People seem to actually believe the crap made up by the media regarding Freo being 'undisciplined'. It was bad enough when other supporters would attempt to use it but now our very own? Next thing you know we'll hear dockerlanders declaring their love for knitting and range rovers.

With you all the way, Bizkit. It is utterly astonishing to me that some folk who've barracked for this team for all these years actually seem to believe, despite everything they must otherwise know about the media, what the media says and writes about us now.

OK. Convince me, folks. What would count as credible evidence for the claim that Freo is 'undisciplined'?

What would count as EVIDENCE?

Hint: perceptions don't count and neither do prejudices. And it goes without saying that what the bloke with the big schnoz on Channel 7 thinks doesn't count. Nor does it count as evidence of our indiscipline that we've had X number of players reported, because other clubs have had reports too.

The evidence in question would have to prove, or at least convince us, that when compared to the other 15 AFL clubs Fremantle could be said to lack 'discipline'.

So ... what would that evidence look like?

Black, Dodd and Solomon for starters. They do some silly things and get pinged way too often. It doesn't matter that other players get away with it (unless you are arguing consistancy) but if you know you are being watched you just gotta be more careful/. If we are getting a raw deal from the Umps and I think we do - until we earn their respect by winning games we just have to play so much smarter.

Addicted, I'd strongly suggest that the scenario you propose - the 14th placed team (Freo) knocking off two hitherto unbeaten teams in Geelong and the Bulldogs - is exactly what the AFL wants.

I asume that you are suggesting that the AFL is run by the betting industry?

'Black, Dodd and Solomon' ... what? You can't just mention 3 names and say that proves that Freo is undisciplined.

How many times have those three players been reported/had frees paid against them, compared to other AFL players?

Your answer to that question can't be what you PERCEIVE 'Black, Dodd and Solomon' to represent. That would be a media/AFL/next-door neighbour answer.

Your answer has to provide facts. What are the facts relating to 'Black, Dodd and Solomon' that would allow you to claim that Freo is an undisciplined team?

If you said that 'Black, Dodd and Solomon' get reported a lot (a statement that may or may not be true), that would not prove necessarily that Freo's undisciplined. Because it could just as easily be used to prove that 'Black, Dodd and Solomon' are victims of incompetent/unprofessional umpiring and a dysfunctional MRP.

Ah, now there's a story (if it were true) that would never get told.

So then Wizfan if, as you ask, you present facts (suspensions and citations and free kicks against) then you ignore them anyway as they are obviosuly victims of aformentioned dodgy umpiring and a 'dysfunctional' MRP. Jeezus.

Considering that we are prevented from using evidence as evidence, what would one use if you wanted to prove something?

The truth of the matter is that we aren't the undiscplined rabble that the likes of Robert Walls and the more febrile members of Planet PeeeArrrr like to make out, but by the same token we aren't the innocent victims of dodgy umpiring, malicious tribunals and diving primadonnas either. As usual the truth lies somewhere in between.

But, DrJon, no one's provided any evidence that Freo players are cited or suspended, or have more frees paid against, than players from other AFL teams. Everyone's just assumed this is true.

That's next-door neighbour stuff. Otherwise known as sports journalism.

This thread, for example, began on the assumption that Doddy's undisciplined, because he gave away a free against Footscray on the w/end. Don't you think that's a bit ridiculous? OK, let's say he gave away a preventable free kick, and that was a bit silly. But how does that prove that Froe's undisciplined? How many other preventable free kicks were given away on the w/end by other players, from other teams? How many frees that should have been paid against other players from other teams, or against our players in the Footscray game, weren't paid?

This is where everyone wants to say: OK, the system's unfair but Freo has to learn to live with it.

That may well be so. But in that case, what everyone's calling for is not for Fremantle to become more 'disciplined'. They're calling for us to become EXCESSIVELY 'disciplined' compared to other teams.

So while other players can make allowable mistakes, we can't. Because the umpires are watching.

If that's the case, then it's got nothing to do with us being 'undisciplined' and everything to do with the fact that (for whatever reason/s) we're being overly scrutinised.

That's the problem that needs to be dealt with. Forget the 'discipline' malarkey.

And if our team has to start winning before the umpires can apply the rules fairly and without discrimination, then the system is corrupt and deserves to be exposed as such.

Well said. Steven Dodd has been one of our most consistent defenders, but what he did was stupid and cost a goal and momentum at a point in the match when we were well on top. It simply is not acceptable and he should have been dragged by Harvey, spoken to and sent back on. Making excuses for players and shifting responsibility onto the umpires really isn't helpful. It won't win matches.

Regarding the speeding ticket analogy and the supposed 10% over rule. The minister came out a few years ago and said 1km/h over and you'll be booked.

Picking a particular umpire, Steve McBurney gives Freo a caning everytime he umpires their games.

Soloman. Back when he was a bomber, I used to think he was a thug. But when he was a bomber, he didn't get reported for what he did. Now he does. Dean Soloman is the same, but the club he plays for has changed. You can draw your own conclusions.

I spent a morning in the court of petty sessions once. Most of the people appearing were down and out, or young guys. There was one exception, the drunk drivers. They looked out of place, often middle class and well dressed, and a reasonable fraction of them female. When you have a booze bus stopping every car, and a objective means of determining blood alcohol, the police don't have the sort of discretion they have when (say) arresting someone for urinating in public. The umpires are like the cops - given a chance, their prejudices show.

Blokes in purple jumpers should not be expected to play under a different set of rules to the other 15 sides. Saying Dodd should have realised he was wearing a purple jumper and thus realised looking at the maggots the wrong way would end up in reversing a 50m and a goal to the dogs is crazy.

Watch any game and you'll see the players involve themselves physically to intimidate the other side. A bump is something that has been around since the game began and has never been illegal in any sense. All of a sudden the maggots have decided Freo players can't employ the bump and it seems some people agree with them.

Dodd did not break any rule. You find me the rule he broke and I'll concede my argument. There's no reason to have a harsh word with Dodd. The maggots on the other hand...

Doesn't matter haw hard you thrash them around the side of the head with a freshly scaled kipper, some people seem determined to hold to their hobby horse until the bitter end.

Wizfan presents a reasonable argument about the merits of criticsm directed our way regarding discipline, but Doddy is still undisciplined.

If you were really going to examine discipline onfield, you'd be assimilating data such as

umpires officiating,
players listed on the day,
ground played at,
percentage of crowd backing each team,
crowd volume,
prevailing media issues prior to the game,
length of shadow cast by groundhog's nose...

and comparing them against every other team, ground and umpire combination going back over, say, 3 - 5 years. Until someone presents a set of facts based on data like that, I will continue to regard people ranting about Freo and discipline problems as no more than semi hysterical muppets possessing no discernible ability for independent thought. In short, sheep.

Simply stealing a nickname from this, or any other, website, isn't going to convince me that the sheep have changed their spots, either, Haggers.

Getting back to the point, as some of you seem to have missed it in your frenzied haste to appoint an escapegoat, Doddy didn't cost us the game. Sure, he got sucked in and gave away an unfortunate turnover... but that's all he did. Get a grip, people.

Equally Bizkit watch any game going right back to the VFL and you will see players doing exactly what the Dogs player did to milk free kicks when that sort of physicality is going on. It has been a part of our game for a very long time, albeit a part that we shouldn't be proud of.

The question is not whether Dodd was stiff to have a free paid against him but whether Dodd should be a bit smarter about how he goes about his game. HE WAS NOT FLYING THE FLAG or anything similar, he was engaging in some childish tit for tat when he should have just be concentrating on where he was going to kick the ball with his free kick. If undisciplined is not the right word to describe his actions the "stupid" certainly is.

You're right Bizkit, it is crazy, but what can FFC do about the umpires perceptions of some of our players i.e. Dodd, Black, Soloman, Carr? Nothing. Other than take a video of examples of umpiring decisions to the AFL and point out the injustice. But just like the tribunal, the AFL will say that umpiring decisions are a case by case thing, and we can't look at other examples from other games as precedents. The AFL is ridiculous, it's a dictatorship.

So, unfortunately, we have to get on with it, and do what they want. i.e. these blokes in particular need to lay low for a while and think about the things they're doing off the ball. I don't like it but what else can we do?

We can sit here all we like and say it's *&$%ed, but it's purely an exercise of futility.

I was under the impression diving has only become a viable option since the maggots decided to stamp their authority all over games in the last 5 to 10 years. Before then players would cop a helluva lot of abuse if they went down like they'd been shot like Lindsay did the other day. In fact if you were that sort of a player I dare say your own team mates would let you know about it.

I don't think we should accept what the maggots and those blokes running the AWFL are going to enforce on us. We are a strong club and they know they need us. At some stage Harves and co are going to stand up and announce we have received too much crap. He's going to have to be smart about it because we aren't going to have the backing of other clubs or the media but we shouldn't have to accept things like this.

Some say we need a premiership to get respect but that's just the worst media bagging us for not having won one yet. When we do they'll come up with another reason why we don't deserve a fair go. What it comes down to is us standing up for our club and not letting these people get away with treating us like a second rate club. Viva la revolution!

Any footage of this incident available? It's got blown out of all proportion here.

I have nothing against Steven Dodd but it makes me cross when my players give away advantage when every point can tip the balance.

Poiple is on the money with what the blue is here. If we know we can’t hand out what we receive and what other teams are allowed to do and we say we just have to play more carefully then we're starting behind the eight ball before we begin and we're at a disadvantage for the entire game. Reading some of the posts here, it's seemingly a disadvantage which evidently some supporters believe is all just cricket.

Well that’s just not cricket!

In the upcoming Australian / West Indian test series, let’s put the West Indies on being able to take catches on the full as well as one hand one bounce rules while Australia has to remain on only the existing catching rules. We'd absolutely blow up and the media would have a field day! That's virtually the level of different rulings Fremantle are regularly up against and to say we just have to play smarter is ignorantly sweeping the matter under the carpet.

Why should certain members of our team have to play under further scrutiny than some of their teammates or opponents? If required, the tribunal handles the past record of players and takes them into account but on the field on the day everyone is entitled to start off with a clean slate and remain on a level playing field throughout the four quarters.

If we’re using the “umpires discretionary powers” as an argument then where was the umpire's discretionary power in telling Gilbee to get up and stop acting?

We're at a three to four goal deficit for each game before we run out on the field. So in my mind we're a 6 and 2 win / loss ratio and we're sitting in equal 4th with the Crows.